And the nice thing about GHS is that they show their tension with reduced frequency of their Strings. So a typical 34" scale bass tension reduced 7 semitones is close to my 23" scale
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Guitar Scale Acoustic Basses
- Thread starter SBassman
- Start date
Hey all....so I just got back from a wonderful trip to Sweetwater Music and playing a bunch of basses. I came to the conclusion that the PNB14E is now my new top runner. The AVNB1E did sound a touch better to me, but I don't think it's $150 better. After playing these two, I was able to play the MK Sojourn 4K. The 4K just sounded too guitarish, while both of the Ibanez's just sounded better (at least to me, they just sounded more like a bass). I'll post a pic if I ever decide to buy one!
Many of these considerations are why I made a tailpiece (to avoid the guitar bridge for all but the saddle) and used very small, light bass tuners on my conversion. Only used a couple of different kinds of strings so far, but don't see any reason I couldn't use whatever will fit.
Nope...
You need to use the formula to calculate the tension.
I'm no mathematician, but slackening off a long string is not the same thing as tuning a shorter string up to the same pitch, and the formula is not linear- it involves squaring the product of twice the length times the frequency.
Purely for demonstration purposes, I'm using an unusual starting pitch. Still, the underlying principles apply. Using the formula for string tension and the GHS chart:
- On a 34" bass, an NB40 nickel round tuned to A3 (110Hz) is under 54.5 lb of tension.
- On the same 34" bass, if you detune the same string down to D2 (73Hz, 7 semitones lower), the tension will be about 24 lb.
- If you put that string on a 23.5" Taylor GS Mini, and tune it up to D2, the tension will only be only 11.5 lb.
- In other words, the actual tension will be less than half of what your method would predict.
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Go for it. Tons of fun to be had.
Considering that some manufacturers of strings do not even measure tension when developing a string makes me wonder if it is relative. I have also been told by a corporate guitar manufacturer that they test strings they intend to put on their guitars by over tuning them and then letting them sit for months and then check for structural integrity and don't do any math.
Stiffness by small core vs large core and alloy and type of outer wrapping and ratio of that wrapping larger or smaller relative to the core and diameter of string and scale as well as deflection and relief of neck and size of frets and laminate or solid body and type of wood and temp and humidity and nut material and fret board material and finger pressure and style of music and type of finish etc of course all come in to play when instruments and string choice come in to play. And since I don't do math, and all the different strings made for a 34 inch scale bass to play E1 that can have different tensions designs and sonic properties, it just all gets muddied in my little brain.
So, thinking about keeping string tension within bounds without making major mods, I started charting string tensions for nickel rounds and flats.
I choose those string types because they should have a darker sound and more conventional feel, compared to the D'Addario rope cores.
The safest bet is still to stick with sets that are made for these basses, and use the same bronze over nylon construction.
The La Bella CB40 classical 4-string contrabass set is the obvious candidate. I couldn't get tension numbers for it, but based on the gauges and construction (and the one review I found), they should darken up the sound a bit, and give you slightly better tension in the G, A and E strings.
The La Bella's are also cheaper, if a little hard to find. Strings by Mail has them in stock for $17.99. The D'Addarios are over $30 from most sources...
Going back to singles, I looked at GHS, Kalium and D'Addario, based on the availability of weight numbers for the tension calculations.
There are still question marks hanging over some of the strings that made the cut:
Here's my tentative list for the Taylor (stock tension is about 50 lb even):
I choose those string types because they should have a darker sound and more conventional feel, compared to the D'Addario rope cores.
The safest bet is still to stick with sets that are made for these basses, and use the same bronze over nylon construction.
The La Bella CB40 classical 4-string contrabass set is the obvious candidate. I couldn't get tension numbers for it, but based on the gauges and construction (and the one review I found), they should darken up the sound a bit, and give you slightly better tension in the G, A and E strings.
The La Bella's are also cheaper, if a little hard to find. Strings by Mail has them in stock for $17.99. The D'Addarios are over $30 from most sources...
Going back to singles, I looked at GHS, Kalium and D'Addario, based on the availability of weight numbers for the tension calculations.
There are still question marks hanging over some of the strings that made the cut:
- To get the right tension spread, I had to resort to mixing guitar strings with bass versions in some cases. D'Addario XL and CB strings are long scale bass strings, and so are GHS DYB's.
- I'm planning to contact D'Addario to find out if the guitar and bass strings sound the same when mixed in a set. This will depend on whether they customize the core and wrap sizes for each application (which I suspect they do)...
- You may have to slip washers or recycled bass string ball ends over guitar strings, in order to get them to fit the bridge.
- When cutting longer scale strings, you may have trouble getting them to fit the tuning pegs.
- If you've never built sets from singles, expect some sticker shock. I've performed mods on basses that were cheaper than a set of singles, and you have to buy them again every time they wear out.
Taylor's scale length is 23.5", the Guild 23.75", and the Ibanez nearly 25". The higher tension (about 5lb overall for the AVNB1E) may explain why the Ibanez models clank out a little less than the others.
Kalium has had some issues with turnaround times, etc, in the past. But they have the advantage of making strings specifically for weird tunings and scale lengths. All of their singles are designed to be assembled into sets, and reportedly sound very even string-to-string.
Intonation is a guessing game here. I already found the Taylor's intonation is pretty poor at the 12th fret, particularly in comparison to the Ibanez AVNB1E. Changing from rope to steel core strings may help or hinder. This is another area where Kalium may be helpful. The small steps between gauges mean that you could order a first set, and then select strings that are a few thou over or under on your next order, in order to nudge the intonation on some or all of the strings in the right direction.
I'm guessing here, but balanced-tension sets should generally give better intonation. In my experience with D'Addario BT sets on full-size basses, they also feel and sound more even. To that end, I charted the spread between the tightest and loosest strings in each set. Standard sets have at least 3 or 4 pounds variance from string to string, so smaller is better, with anything under a pound and a half being very good.
Taylor recommends that you not increase string tension over stock (about 50lb total). I personally wouldn't go more than 10% over, which eliminates the last couple of sets on my list. You experiment with violating the warranty on your bass at your own risk!
Kalium has had some issues with turnaround times, etc, in the past. But they have the advantage of making strings specifically for weird tunings and scale lengths. All of their singles are designed to be assembled into sets, and reportedly sound very even string-to-string.
Intonation is a guessing game here. I already found the Taylor's intonation is pretty poor at the 12th fret, particularly in comparison to the Ibanez AVNB1E. Changing from rope to steel core strings may help or hinder. This is another area where Kalium may be helpful. The small steps between gauges mean that you could order a first set, and then select strings that are a few thou over or under on your next order, in order to nudge the intonation on some or all of the strings in the right direction.
I'm guessing here, but balanced-tension sets should generally give better intonation. In my experience with D'Addario BT sets on full-size basses, they also feel and sound more even. To that end, I charted the spread between the tightest and loosest strings in each set. Standard sets have at least 3 or 4 pounds variance from string to string, so smaller is better, with anything under a pound and a half being very good.
Taylor recommends that you not increase string tension over stock (about 50lb total). I personally wouldn't go more than 10% over, which eliminates the last couple of sets on my list. You experiment with violating the warranty on your bass at your own risk!
Here's my tentative list for the Taylor (stock tension is about 50 lb even):
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Yes.
Tuning a string to a given pitch on a 34" scale instrument, then detuning it 7 half-steps, and finally tuning the same string on a 23"-odd instrument to the second pitch instead of the first, given one is moving the goalposts.
In your example, tune the string up to A2 (110Hz) on the Taylor GS Mini, not to D2. The tension you will get is in fact similar to that of the NB40 at D2 at 34" scale; well, actually a little higher than the latter, but in the ballpark. Why? Because when the string is at D2 on the 34", and you fret or capo it at the 7th fret, you have the same linear mass (because the string is the same), at the same pitch (A2), at a similar vibrating length (22,692" vs. 23.5") to the shortie: ergo, tension will be similar, and the formula itself only agrees with this. What @tymbrewolf wrote is correct.
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Why would you want to move the goalposts by tuning the D string on a mini bass up a fifth?
@tymbrewolf was right in that sense, but only if you forget the original point of the exercise.
We're looking for ways to preserve normal bass tuning with other string types, and maybe get a little more tension without breaking anything.
Using your logic, we tune a mini-bass up to something like A D G C, and get roughly the same string tensions as a normally-strung 34" bass capo'd at the 7th fret. However, the outcome is negative in two very significant ways:
- We don't have a bass any more- we have a short-scale 4-string baritone guitar.
- Tuning it up to 20-odd pounds per string risks pulling it apart. D'Addario's published tension for the EXPPBB190GS set is only 50 lb for all four strings, and that's what these basses are designed around.
My apologies to any onlookers who are struggling to follow all this math.
For an easier way to derive the right string gauges for a mini bass with nickel rounds, go to the Kalium string calculator, and plug in the scale length of your bass at the top of the page:
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You'll quickly see that in order to put conventional steel-core strings on your Taylor without changing the tuning or raising the tension a bunch, you'll need to drop the gauges a bit from the stock values of 37 50 62 90...
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I did a comparison using stew mac calc and dadarrio string tension pro. 34 scale and
22.692 which is 34 scale at the 7th fret. Detuning a round wound a1 to d1 and then changing to shorter scale leaving frequency at a1 provided for the exact same tension. I have also known this from many resources for years... not wanting to hijack thread, argue, or offer any disrespect. I simply choose to disagree but also have afforded amethod that one can check my work.
22.692 which is 34 scale at the 7th fret. Detuning a round wound a1 to d1 and then changing to shorter scale leaving frequency at a1 provided for the exact same tension. I have also known this from many resources for years... not wanting to hijack thread, argue, or offer any disrespect. I simply choose to disagree but also have afforded amethod that one can check my work.
In your thought experiment the initial point was having the string (originally a G string, but the point about having lighter gauges to preserve the integrity of the acoustic instrument is not missed, more on that below) arbitrarily tuned to a fifth up on a 34" scale bass, then brought down the same amount, then compared to having the same string on a shorter scale at the final pitch, in so doing missing any significance of the downtuning procedure; the result appeared to contradict tymbrewolf's intuition, namely that in order to have a sense of the tension of a string on a different scale, a quick-and-dirty (but by no means inaccurate) method that avoids calculations is to check the tensions provided for that string for 34" scale at a lower pitch, corresponding to the difference in scale (=so that a lower-pitched open string on the long-scale one would allow a fretted note, on the same long-scaler, to have the desired pitch at a distance to the bridge similar to the scale of the shortie, at a similar resulting tension).
There you go. That was my point.
My impression is that the TBer in question was not strictly sticking to your exercise, but just discussing how to have an idea of what (obviously extra-light) tensions to expect from a bass set of common gauges, made by a company that bothers to provide tension data, when it is installed on a shorter-scale instrument. Without adjusting said gauges, that is. Relative to the topic at hand (guitar-scale acoustic basses that come with light-tension, nylon-core strings, and are presumably not built to withstand much more tension than the stock string complement provides), we could say that this line of reasoning addressed the "preserve normal tuning" and the "without breaking anything" part of what you (and others, I presume from your "we") are interested in, rather than the "get a little more tension".
Agreed on all counts, except that the above isn't and wasn't "my" logic. That there fella's made of straw, look *this* way.
I only wrote that the tension of the NB40 at D2 at 23.5" scale is a moot point after mentioning its behaviour at A2 and D2 at 34" scale: of course it's lower than the same string at the same pitch (whether or not it was detuned) at a longer scale. The point is that tension at D2 on the 34" is close to what we get at A2 on the 23". Any other comparison misses the detuning by x-semitones reasoning (that one may not find it interesting in and of itself is another matter, of course). That one post of yours that I originally quoted claimed that said reasoning yielded inaccurate results, by quite a significant margin. I simply pointed out how and why that isn't the case.
Except that in the context of previous posts about trying to order non-standard strings, timberwolf's reasoning resulted in an estimated string tension that was more than double the actual tension in normal use. That's a big difference in terms of feel, and response when you dig in.
That's why I spent all that time creating some sample tension charts using real-world numbers on commercially available singles.
If he'd ordered loose singles for his bass based on the down 7 semi-tones estimate, he would have used smaller gauges, and ended up with a floppy mess.
It sure would be nice to know the approximate tension of the LaBella MicroBass Flats.
They would be my choice for a fretless Ibby. Gold Tone says that they work on their fretless acoustics, but those may have sturdier top bracing than the Ibbys.
MicroBass LaBella Flat Wound Strings | Gold Tone Folk Instruments
They would be my choice for a fretless Ibby. Gold Tone says that they work on their fretless acoustics, but those may have sturdier top bracing than the Ibbys.
MicroBass LaBella Flat Wound Strings | Gold Tone Folk Instruments
Again, @tymbrewolf's reasoning only results in having the roughly correct idea of the tension of a set, or individual strings if sold individually, on the shorter-scale bass, within six or seven pounds. Nothing more, nothing less. Depending on the chosen gauges, the total tension may or may not be similar to that of the D'Addario EXPPBB190GS set that most of these instruments come with (and are probably designed to have on), which may be pertinent to the thread but outside the scope of the member's post. "Wanna know how much a bass string pulls at ±23"? Got a tension chart for that string, with values at standard scale? Look a fifth down your target pitches, here's your tensions. Bam. Yeah, not bang-on down to a fraction of a pound, but close enough. Don't believe it? Do the math: yep, it is close enough." That's all.
"Too much for the instrument to handle, too little tension for your taste and playing, possibly lousy intonation (unless you move the bridge) and wobbly pitch after the attack and with heavy fretting?" Maybe/probably/even a definite yes to some/most/all the above: but not germane to that specific line of thought/rule of thumb.
Actually, they're pretty great.
They are the reason these things sound good out of the box. Darker and more like a regular bass on the Ibanez, a little more obviously brassy and acoustic-sounding on the Taylor.
I've ordered a set of the La Bella CB40's just for fun, but I think I may be staying with the stock strings on the AVNB1E in the long term. I really like range of tones I get from the tone controls with the D'Addarios.
I had another rehearsal with it last night, this time with a different group. I was mobbed with questions about it the minute I walked in the door, because the other drummer had been talking about "Steve's little bass with the big tone".
Feel-wise, they are much easier to adapt to than the silicone fatties on Uke basses. However, it's a bit of an adjustment. It's not just the lower tension, it's also the fact that rope core strings roll under your finger a little bit. If you've ever played a classical guitar back-to-back with a steel string, then you know what I mean.
There's also the string noise issue. Some people have expressed a preference for grounds or flats, especially for fretless.
Once again, the brighter and more open the top end is on a particular bass, the more it matters. I'm a hard-core roundwound player on my regular basses, and I'm fine on the AVNB1E with a touch of treble rolloff. However, there are still some folk that would prefer less squeak.
Besides, this wouldn't be Talkbass if people weren't GASing for ways to personalize them!
And let me reiterate its wonderful idea in my opinion for for these little body acoustic short basses. I am merely wanting to tweak for me and my main sub short scale favorite. Unfortunately many of these are copied from Taylor's or dadarrio, strings. So, if you find you want something else you risk the guitar with out the knowledge that wont be freely given by people in the business for profit. Although there are at least three manufacturers that use their own strings. Gold tone, ortega and taylor. Which came first the guitar or the strings I know not. There absolutely nothing wrong with any of those proprietary strings of which I have used all three.i did not grow up in the round wound era. That is all. And without playing a retrofitted new gold tone for flats and fretted which costs about 500 for the strings and bridge move, I am looking for a soft less zing alternative for old finger memories going from solid body mini strat bass with flats to acoustic.
And although we talked lots about ibby which I still haven't been able to see, For me, I would go with a gold tone or 3 of their M fretless if I was only going to play fretless all the time with one set up with poly strings 1 set up with silver backs and 1 set up with flats. Who else offers that at 23 to 25 scale
