Guitar Scale Acoustic Basses

[steve_rolfeca]

So who thinks Guild (Cordoba?) would build the Jumbo Juniors to only handle the synthetic core D'addarios?

It think a better question would be why Guild would build the Jumbo Junior to suit steel-core strings.

I grew up in a family music business. I was got my first acoustic guitar in 1962. I spent countless hours in the repair departments of the music stores that my dad managed, and I've seen every destructive customer error known to man.

In addition, one of my friends is a highly-skilled luthier who has built custom instruments for the likes of Bruce Cockburn, Stephen Bennett and Tommy Emmanuel. He also gets to restore and modify a lot of valuable vintage instruments. I'm not a skilled luthier (solid-bodies are more my speed), but I've known Tony for over 25 years, watched him build dozens of instruments in his shop, travelled with him to guitar shows, had the opportunity to shoot the breeze with a ton of other top-ranked luthiers, and seen the insides of a wide range of acoustic instruments in the process.

This is the sum of my experience in this area:

Building a lively, resonant guitar is a balancing act. It must be built just strong enough to last, but not so heavy that it chokes off the tone and acoustic output.

An over-built instrument can withstand a lot of extra string tension, but the downside is a noticeable loss of acoustic output and tone.

This is why a serious nylon string conversion on a steel-strung guitar involves shaving the braces. Even then, they never measure up to a good, purpose-built classical guitar.

Which brings us to the subject at hand:

• The Taylor GS mini has a warranty warning against using other strings.
• The obvious implication is that the Taylor is lightly braced, in order to give good response with the stock strings.
• The average tension on the stock D'Addarios is around 12.5 lb per string.
• The EXPPB170S hex-core bronze wounds that came on the MK Sojourn 4K average about 23.75 lb per string, about a 55% increase.

You can use this information to get a rough idea of what to expect from the Guild under the same circumstances:

• The Guild is built on a slightly longer scale than the Taylor, so string tension with equivalent sets is higher.
• If the Guild came from the factory over-braced and ready for heavier strings, the bass response and overall output would not be as loud as the Taylor out of the box. Also, the intonation with the stock nylon-cores would be off a noticeable amount at the 12th fret.

My Guild isn't quite as nicely built as the Taylor, but it's competitive with it in terms of acoustic output. It does not sound like it's over-braced.

The Guild handles the La Bella CB40 nylon-cores quite nicely, but I would estimate that they are maybe 10% stiffer than stock.

I would only use heavy flats on the Guild, if I intended to downtune it. Otherwise, I would expect to be into major repairs within two to three years at best.

If I was going to do a steel string conversion on one a nylon-strung GSAB, I would probably start with an Ibanez PNB because of the heavier, laminated top. Plus, the low price makes it more disposable.

 

[fermata]

Note that there are two guitar-scale acoustic basses already designed for steel-core strings:

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[macmanlou]

Note that there are two guitar-scale acoustic basses already designed for steel-core strings:

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And if you like fretless, the fretless Gold Tone 23" and 25" scale Microbass's work fine with the LaBella MBLS steel core flatwounds. They'll probably work fine with properly made steel core roundwounds, too. The MBLS E string is .108" - .109". Intonation is not relevant without frets, that's in your ears and fingers.

If you are interested in one of those, with MBLS strings already installed and set-up, contact Gold Tone directly. They set up a 25 fretless with the MBLS's for me, and gave me excellent service as well as a very, very good price (without my asking).

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Note that there are two guitar-scale acoustic basses already designed for steel-core strings:

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This!

And this:

And if you like fretless, the fretless Gold Tone 23" and 25" scale Microbass's work fine with the LaBella MBLS steel core flatwounds. They'll probably work fine with properly made steel core roundwounds, too. The MBLS E string is .108" - .109". Intonation is not relevant without frets, that's in your ears and fingers.

If you are interested in one of those, with MBLS strings already installed and set-up, contact Gold Tone directly. They set up a 25 fretless with the MBLS's for me, and gave me excellent service as well as a very, very good price (without my asking).

Don't butcher a relatively delicate, high-quality instrument that's made to work with nylon/bronze strings, when there are alternatives that were built to accommodate steel cores.

I think Luna has one as well, and there are also a bunch of guitar-scale solid-body basses that are easy to adjust for the correct intonation and more than sturdy enough to accept just about any string you throw at them.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

Someone PM'd me a question about the way the nylon cores roll side to side under their fingers. La Bella CB40's roll as well, but do it less simply because they're about 10% stiffer.

I don't think we've talked about nylon-string technique recently on this thread, and I think it's helpful to consider it, especially the first time you approach a nylon-strung GSAB. I remember being very disappointed when I first saw videos of the GS Mini Bass on YouTube. Demonstrators were overplaying them so badly, that I couldn't get a sense of the instrument:

This one gets a little better later on, but the intro was a real turnoff for me:




It doesn't have to be that way. Properly played, nylon-core strings have a warm and mellow tone.

I'm hoping that if we compare notes, we can help new GSAB owners to acclimatize a little quicker to the EXPPBB190GS strings, and maybe convince some that steels aren't the only way to get a good tone and feel.

The plucking hand takes some getting used to. The way the strings roll under the fingers feels a little odd. Also, the low string tension makes them fret out more easily when you get aggressive.

I suspect that players coming across from Uke basses probably find the accommodation easier. Having a bit of classical guitar in your background helps as well. At least IMO, a good starting point is to lighten up on your attack. When played more softly, these basses can produce a surprisingly round, satisfying low end. If you plug them in and let the amp do the work, there's no reason to hammer on the strings except for effect.

Thanks to the piezo pickup, all these basses offer a nice, big dynamic range (wider than a regular bass with magnetic pickups). However, it all happens at a lower level of effort. If you attack it like a regular electric bass, it's going to sound clanky and abrasive.

Another characteristic of these strings, is that they stretch a lot more under tension. This is why it takes so many turns on the peg to make tuning adjustments, and it's also why bends and electric guitar-style vibrato aren't effective as you may be used to.

This is why classical guitarists produce vibrato like a violinist, moving their fingers along the length of the string instead of side-to-side.

Here's a short (1:43) video that demonstrates.



This works really well on any of the nylon-strung GASB's, whether it's a Guild, Ibanez, Taylor, or ???

Instead of chasing other string types, in the long run I think it's cheaper and more effective to woodshed the heck out of your GSAB and "listen with your fingers" to how it wants to be played.

 

[macmanlou]

...there are also a bunch of guitar-scale solid-body basses that are easy to adjust for the correct intonation and more than sturdy enough to accept just about any string you throw at them.

For the widest variety of available steel core strings, the solid body route really is the easiest way to go.

Gear4Music sell the Samick Greg Bennett MCR-1 for $215 shipped. The LaBella MBLS flats fit well and sound great. The stock pickups didn't sound bad, but I did put a set of EMG Geezers and pots in mine.

 

[scotch]

What Steve Rolfeca wrote above +1000!!!

Of course it's always 'ok' to run down whatever rabbit hole one wants to, but with instruments like the Taylor GS and the original rubber-strung U-Bass, folks need to understand they aren't P-Basses and require at least a modest amount of regard for technique differences.

 

[bsman]

I'm lucky - I'm relatively new at bass (after more than 50 years of playing guitar) so I'm not having to unlearn anything. I traded for a standard-scale, solid-body, 5-string Schecter bass at the same time I bought the little Ibanez, but I'm finding that the Schecter stays on the stand while I noodle on the Ibby. It's just so comfortable to play on the couch. I've had it about a month now, and still haven't even plugged it in...

 

[skycruiser]

I'm lucky - I'm relatively new at bass (after more than 50 years of playing guitar) so I'm not having to unlearn anything. I traded for a standard-scale, solid-body, 5-string Schecter bass at the same time I bought the little Ibanez, but I'm finding that the Schecter stays on the stand while I noodle on the Ibby. It's just so comfortable to play on the couch. I've had it about a month now, and still haven't even plugged it in...

Don't wait too long to plug it in. My AVN bass had a major defect in the pickup and I had to send it back. I would advise you remove the strings, remove the saddle and inspect the pickup carefully. The wire braid on mine was severely damaged causing a large difference in volume between the strings (mainly the E was much louder than the others).

 

[bsman]

Don't wait too long to plug it in. My AVN bass had a major defect in the pickup and I had to send it back. I would advise you remove the strings, remove the saddle and inspect the pickup carefully. The wire braid on mine was severely damaged causing a large difference in volume between the strings (mainly the E was much louder than the others).

Thanks for the warning - I'll plug her in tonight after work and check it out.

 

[tymbrewolf]

I just wish there was a nickel rollerwound option over nylon. Brass is to brassy. Rollerwounds are less harsh on the fingers but more dynamic than flat. The flatwound lunas e2 that i put on the kmise 21.5 scale tenor gyuitar are too stiff at eadg for my liking but is obviously made for something else and used by luna as silk on both ends is to long

 

[skycruiser]

While I'm at it can anyone recommend a gig bag for the Ibby that is a cut above the Chromacast that's been mentioned? Maybe in the $40-$60 price range?

Fits my PNB14E (and previously my AVN) perfectly.

Gator 4G Series Gig Bag - Classical Guitar

 

[DavidG]

Thanks for the recommendation.
I bought an open box Crossrock CRSG 107 CDG (Classical) for under $20. Perfect fit. Nicely made. Like the look.
Wish it had a neck support but I only bought the bass to plunk around on in the house and it needed a case to live in so this will be fine.

 

[HaphAsSard]

The flatwound lunas e2 that i put on the kmise 21.5 scale tenor gyuitar are too stiff at eadg for my liking but is obviously made for something else and used by luna as silk on both ends is to long

Gauges are .029-.041-.049-.059 (I know it's on the package, 'twas just a reminder for me); you could try single D'Addario Chrome guitar flats, adjusting gauges to taste relative to how you (don't) like the Lunas:
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No silk.

 

[tymbrewolf]

Gauges are .029-.041-.049-.059 (I know it's on the package, 'twas just a reminder for me); you could try single D'Addario
Chrome guitar flats, adjusting gauges to taste relative to how you (don't) like the Lunas:
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No silk.

Thanks

 

[SidNitzerglobin]

The Guild Jumbo Jr. has been one of the most fun instruments I've ever owned. Really just a great little bass for noodling/practice/etc. IMO:

Spent an inconsiderate amount of time A/B-ing between it & the GS Mini acoustic & amped before buying & it was a pretty strong winner for me.

 

[SBassman]

I agree - ridiculous fun. I love these instruments. Hope they stay on the market forever.

 

[Felix Lopez]

 

[HeavyDuty]

Ok, I need someone to hold my hand.

I have a spruce top Taylor, bog standard. It was bought used so I don’t have to worry about the warranty from using alternative strings, but I don’t want to cause issues either.

We’ve discussed many string options here, but I’m getting overwhelmed by choice. My current strings are showing a fair amount of oxidation, I’m sure they are the original D’Addarios.

Months ago I ordered a set of the CB40s based on this thread but haven’t yet mounted them. I’m beginning to wonder if I should just get another set of the approved D’Addarios.

 

[HeavyDuty]

The Guild Jumbo Jr. has been one of the most fun instruments I've ever owned. Really just a great little bass for noodling/practice/etc. IMO:
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Spent an inconsiderate amount of time A/B-ing between it & the GS Mini acoustic & amped before buying & it was a pretty strong winner for me.

I’ve messed with these at GC several times and like them. I went Taylor, but if Guild is ever offered in a five string version I’m there. I can dream, right?