Guitarists and tempos.

[mike o]

Good day y’all.
What is the deal with guitarists in general want to play songs at faster tempos? Any way to talks sense into them? As a bass player I want all the space I can get to play with in a bar of music and marinate those notes. Guitarists would rather blow through. Here’s an example, Every Time I roll the Dice - Delbert McClinton. Great feel and bass line on original recording 112 bpm. Playing at 125 plus without a plan just sounds unprofessional and sloppy without a good groove. This has been more the norm in my years of playing. Is their a way to convince band members it’s better to be closer to original tempos?

 

[ArtechnikA]

What does the drummer think? Seems it takes two to tango and if you and the drummer set the tempo and you are ignored, guitar guy will be done with the song while you're still on the last chorus. If guitar guy always wants to play like he's in a punk band, it might not be the right project for somebody...

 

[pepj]

Set up a click. But something tells me this will be opposed by said gtr.
Our drummer got told off for a tempo that was only slightly high (the singer felt uncomfortable singing that bpm) so drummer suggested a click which was a great responseand attitude. Suits me...we can use that requirement to sell the IEM idea too.

Tell gtr his tempo/bpm is ruining the groove.
Then if that doesn't work, fire him.

 

[KenD]

The rhythm section sets the tempo and the groove. The guitarist rides on that or else rides off into the sunset

 

[five7]

Last guitarist played everything slow, him and drummer were constantly arguing. Fired the singer and band broke up.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

<sigh> It's not a "guitarists" thing. It's a "musicians-who-need-to-improve-their-groove-and-tempo-feel" thing. I've heard it from players of every instrument. Including us bassists, I might add. The guitarist-bashing gets a little old.

A common suggestion, and I think a good one, is to record your band playing and then insist on everyone listening to it, maybe side by side with the original. That might help clarify what the concern is. Another might be to figure out who in the band has the best sense of *appropriate* tempo and make that person responsible for all countoffs. Doesn't matter who it is, could be you or the drummer or whoever, but ask the band to follow whoever is doing the counting. Yet another, as @pepj suggested, is to use a click, at least for the countoff.

One or more of those might work, at least partially. Probably others will have other ideas. If nothing works, you have a dilemma.

 

[KenD]

Another might be to figure out who in the band has the best sense of tempo and make that person responsible for all countoffs

If the drummer doesn't have a good sense of tempo and rhythm, I think the band has more deep seated problems.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

If the drummer doesn't have a good sense of tempo and rhythm, I think the band has more deep seated problems.

Sure, but that's not necessarily the issue here. I've played with drummers who play well and have rock-solid time but aren't necessarily as keenly aware of what tempo a singer (or lead instrumentalist) is most comfortable with, for example. That is, if the song is counted off at 132, they'll keep it right there and groove it, but they won't always be aware that the singer (or lead instrumentalist) would have been more comfortable if it had been counted off at, say, 124. If left to their own devices to count off the song, they might not pick the ideal one, even if they'd hold it well once they started. Holding a chosen tempo and choosing an appropriate one to begin with are different things.

FWIW, in one band I do most of the countoffs, whereas in another (instrumental) band, the lead instrumentalist, who plays virtually all the melodies, does. We just seem to get the best tempos that way.

 

[Dark Star Wars]

Ha! I'm in the exact opposite situation; in very casual jam situation (though they do want play out) - 2 acoustic guitars, both through amps and guitar effects, and the tempos are C R A Z Y slow.... we play covers and the tempos are so slow that these once rockin' baselines now just plod along like a tired old horse. Even the I started/counted off a song that I was singing, the tempo has dropped significantly by the chorus. It makes me wonder "do these guys even HEAR/understand how slow they take it?! Kind of drives me crazy, but I like them as friends, so I try and write it off as "hey man I'm just here to play with THEM, so if this is what they do, I can play along or (take it) or leave it." I hate telling other people how to play, and I'm afraid I might come off as a jerk if I say something like , 'hey guys our tempos are really slow, can we pick it up and keep it there?'

I love playing with people - though I really enjoy nailing the tunes...

OP: maybe your speed-running guitarist could join these guys and it would all even out!

 

[Wasnex]

It's pretty common to play songs a bit faster live. I was not familiar with Every Time I roll the Dice, so I took a listen. In all honesty, it sounds too slow to me; so I am not surprised. Perhaps I would feel different if it was a song I loved and listened to regularly.

It's likely the problem is not just the guitarist. If the bass and drums lock in at 112bpm, then the guitar has to deal with it. So IMHO probably the best place to start is working it out with the drummer. Unfortunately, drummers tend to have even more of a tendency to push the tempo than guitarists.

Keep in mind, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. If it's clear the band will not or can not play at the original tempo, then I suggest you let it go rather than continuing to stew over it. If you can't let it go, weigh the pros and cons of staying in this group and consider putting in notice that you will be moving on. It's important to be holistic and realistic with your assessment of the situation, because groups almost always have a range of issues that will get on your nerves if you let them.

The good thing here is Every Time I roll the Dice should be a fairly easy song at >125bpm. I tend to be far more frustrated when the tempo is pushed so much that I can't actually play the notes. I like to play a boogie bass line for songs like Johnny B. Good. I used to work with a drummer who would always push the tempo so fast that I eventually wound up playing a 2 beat. Overall, he was actually a really good drummer.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I hate telling other people how to play, and I'm afraid I might come off as a jerk if I say something like , 'hey guys our tempos are really slow, can we pick it up and keep it there?'

If it's a casual jam situation as you say, why would that be a jerk move? It's not a gig, and they're not hiring you, so why shouldn't you be able to ask that? I do understand the sensitivity around not wanting to sound like you're *telling* then what to do, so if you're concerned about that, maybe you could start by asking for it in a way that no reasonable person could interpret as a criticism. Something like, "Hey, guys, I've been wondering what [song X] would sound like if we took it a little quicker. Can we do me a favor and try it that way?"

 

[Lobster11]

An obvious but crucial question, I think, is whether the guitarist is knowingly playing at a faster tempo than the original because he prefers it that way, or whether he (mistakenly) believes that he is playing it at the "right" tempo. If the former, you have "artistic differences" that need to be resolved as a band; if the latter, maybe someone just needs to pull out a phone and play a bit of the original for him.

 

[turf3]

Don't talk to me about guitarists. Not when there are piano players who do all their playing by themselves, and can't hold a dotted half note for three beats to save their lives. "Oh, you want to go to that next chord NOW? Silly me, I thought since the music has it lasting for two bars, you'd wait for eight beats to change, but it seems you want to change after 6 1/2 beats..."

 

[StyleOverShow]

Have noticed the ‘rock’ tempo is faster and clips the downbeat a bit causing a sense of speed that is very much consistent with the 8ths strumming rhythm guitar somewhere in the mix. They seemed to implicitly agree that the chunka-chunka that drives so many rock tunes needed to be slightly rushed. For me it killed any chance of a stronger down or back beat homogenizing it all into a flow.

In a recent classic rock band I struggled to keep the tempos against the drummer and the guitars all. I pointed out our BPM that we played at was higher than the original recordings, sacrosanct to them, and how the singer was forced to hurry his phrases, and that the groove was suffering.

I’m an RnB guy and the groove is ‘the deal’ in live music.

 

[Killing Floor]

Record it and play it back to the whole band and say “WE are rushing this song” and play the original for comparison. I’d be careful not to throw blame.

 

[Parzival]

Good day y’all.
What is the deal with guitarists in general want to play songs at faster tempos? Any way to talks sense into them? As a bass player I want all the space I can get to play with in a bar of music and marinate those notes. Guitarists would rather blow through. Here’s an example, Every Time I roll the Dice - Delbert McClinton. Great feel and bass line on original recording 112 bpm. Playing at 125 plus without a plan just sounds unprofessional and sloppy without a good groove. This has been more the norm in my years of playing. Is their a way to convince band members it’s better to be closer to original tempos?

Question, is the guitarist just wanting to play it at a faster tempo and trying to get rhythm section on board, or is it a case of they are just playing it faster live and rhythm section is following it? Either a disagreement or communication problem?

Discussing what tempo to play amongst everyone is one thing, but during a live show, our guitar players know they better be with me and drummer or it will be a trainwreck because we set the tempo and do not move from it.

 

[hrodbert696]

There are a lot of original artists whose live versions of songs are faster tempo than the studio recording. It isn't always a bad thing.

But lots of times, it is. Sometimes in rehearsal I'll demonstrate a side-to-side dance step and point out you need time to get the foot from A to B, or it's no fun.

I have a pet theory about a common cause for the rushing. Many songs start with some signature riff. A guitarist rehearses that riff at home, over and over again, so they can play it right. Eventually they get good at it so they can rip through it fast, and they get used to drilling it that way. Then they come into rehearsal or a gig and play the riff at the zipping-along tempo they got used to practicing it at, and now the whole band is struggling to reel it back in.

 

[Andy Marshman]

The rhythm section sets the tempo and the groove.

I have the opposite problem. The rhythm and lead guitarists (and singers) have what I call a 'slow clock'. Left to their own devices (ie without the rhythm section) they play and sing everything too slow. If the drummer is unavailable at practice, I have a full time job keeping the rest up to speed. So, I feel like I'm the guy going too fast occasionally. I think the others don't listen to and retain the proper tempo of the song being talked about. And don't even mention click tracks to these people. They never heard of one. Thankfully the drummer and I are locked and on the right tempo (and he sings about 50% of the songs).

 

[faulknersj]

Honestly…sounds like a ‘your guitarist’ issue…not a ‘guitarists’ issue.

The guitar players I play with are pocket AF…I haven’t experienced this with guitar anymore than any other instrument

 

[mike o]

I wish I understood why some folks prefer to play songs faster than needed. We’re not getting paid by the note right. Lots of great suggestions. Thanks you. Oh, I’m not a guitar basher. I just think overall they prefer faster tempos.

It is normal to perform songs a little faster than original recordings. Even the original artists do this live but, how much faster can you go before changing the feel? In this example, original is 112bpm (right in that sweet dance spot). 10% faster makes it roughly 125. Is that too fast.