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Guitarists and tempos.
- Thread starter mike o
- Start date
Many times they are unaware they are even doing it and don't feel tempo very well. You just have to say something about it during rehearsal.
The rhythm section sets the tempo and the groove. The guitarist rides on that or else rides off into the sunset
Ideally, yeah.
Though not really, at least not in many working bands I've been part of.
Mostly it's been BL-as-guitarist either counts off or starts playing a riff we all come in on after 4 or 8. Either way, they, not the drummer or rhythm section, set the tempo.
Some have done well in this regard, some haven't.
Same goes for drummers I've worked with when they're expected to count off a song. Some know and follow BPM's as second-nature, some get a little excited and start too fast, some do both.
Knowing optimal meter is the responsibility of whoever kicks off the song; Keeping it once you're in it is everyone's.
FullumMusic
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Not necessarily a guitarist problem. It's definitely an amateur musician problem, at the risk of sounding derogatory. People tend to rush. Playing slow is harder than playing fast. (Although guitarists are kinda notorious for this)
Sometimes they don't realize they're speeding up:
Some have no sense of time or tempo. Some aren't really listening to the song, they're just listening to themselves playing; they don't hear how anxiously fast or rushed it sounds; they don't hear how ahead of the drums and bass they're getting. Some just play at the one tempo they're comfortable playing everything at. Some can only play their licks at a certain speed and don't know how to adjust to different tempos, or play unique lines for each individual song. Some just can't wait for the tempo when they get excited while playing and they think it's lagging. But, if they were better listeners and had better tempo control, they'd hear that it was them pushing ahead, not everyone else lagging.
Other times they specifically want to play faster:
They think speeding things up makes it more exciting and gives it more energy, not realizing that most of the time it has the exact opposite effect, making songs feel rushed, or one-dimensional, and lose energy. Some have a hard time playing slow but don't want to admit it so they just try to play everything fast. It's easier to just do what they're used to than try to learn to play slow.
A lot of times when it's my turn to start a tune at a jam i go to, i deliberately start about 10bpm slower than i want to play the song/groove because i know everyone else is just gonna keep pushing the tempo until it's way faster than it should be, and no matter how much "playing back" i do can slow it down.
There's a ton more to why musicians tend to play too-fast or outright want to speed everything up. But that's my $0.02 worth synopsis.
Sometimes they don't realize they're speeding up:
Some have no sense of time or tempo. Some aren't really listening to the song, they're just listening to themselves playing; they don't hear how anxiously fast or rushed it sounds; they don't hear how ahead of the drums and bass they're getting. Some just play at the one tempo they're comfortable playing everything at. Some can only play their licks at a certain speed and don't know how to adjust to different tempos, or play unique lines for each individual song. Some just can't wait for the tempo when they get excited while playing and they think it's lagging. But, if they were better listeners and had better tempo control, they'd hear that it was them pushing ahead, not everyone else lagging.
Other times they specifically want to play faster:
They think speeding things up makes it more exciting and gives it more energy, not realizing that most of the time it has the exact opposite effect, making songs feel rushed, or one-dimensional, and lose energy. Some have a hard time playing slow but don't want to admit it so they just try to play everything fast. It's easier to just do what they're used to than try to learn to play slow.
A lot of times when it's my turn to start a tune at a jam i go to, i deliberately start about 10bpm slower than i want to play the song/groove because i know everyone else is just gonna keep pushing the tempo until it's way faster than it should be, and no matter how much "playing back" i do can slow it down.
There's a ton more to why musicians tend to play too-fast or outright want to speed everything up. But that's my $0.02 worth synopsis.
Most folks play faster live than the recording. I think it is sloppy. Listen to a song as a band. Pick the tempo then stick to it. Playing in tune and in time are fundamental. No amount of chops will make up for poor tune or time performance.
Your theory got me pondering my own experience and I have to say it resonates. Thanks.. useful insight!
The "right" tempo, at least in live performances, will change dependent upon venue, acoustics, crowd, energy, vibe, whatever. Playing to a click is a sure way to negate all of that...but why would you want to?
IMHO, there's no point in deciding on "the" correct BPM for a tune, unless you're playing a choreographed show.
IMHO, there's no point in deciding on "the" correct BPM for a tune, unless you're playing a choreographed show.
This is true, but to be fair, guitar seems to attract a higher proportion of musicianship-challenged players than any other instrument except maybe drums, at least in my experience. (I've met plenty of well-trained, competent musicians on drums and guitar, not saying they don't exist.)
You left out singers. Voice is an instrument... Although many times it's hard to tell....
I'm struggling with this currently. We've discussed it at rehearsals and he agrees that the songs have more gravitas or weight when we sit them back a bit. The vocalist told him she can't sing the lyrics with feeling when she has to rush the words. I've also explained that I have to leave out a lot of what makes the bass lines so nice.
I'm usually pretty good at setting tempos but the couple of tunes that I start pretty soon end up at faster tempos. My rule of thumb to establish a tempo live is to hear the chorus in my head. It has served me well for many years. I always go by the vocals. That is after all why we are there. The drummer says he listens to the overall effect and I believe he's not aware of how he is affecting both the vocalist and myself. She struggles to get the words out and I struggle to play all the nice little grace notes that make our soul/rhythm & blues tunes feel so funky. The result sounds rushed and nervous and doesn't sit like it should.
The drummer is generally a good player and a nice guy and not all the songs are affected. Unfortunately he is the one who gets gigs and is a founding member of the band so I have to accept it. It's otherwise a good band with a great repertoire and the chances of me finding something better or even similar are scant. It's better than not playing at all. In my more than half a century of playing live there have been too few bands where every player carries their weight. That's how it is.
I'm usually pretty good at setting tempos but the couple of tunes that I start pretty soon end up at faster tempos. My rule of thumb to establish a tempo live is to hear the chorus in my head. It has served me well for many years. I always go by the vocals. That is after all why we are there. The drummer says he listens to the overall effect and I believe he's not aware of how he is affecting both the vocalist and myself. She struggles to get the words out and I struggle to play all the nice little grace notes that make our soul/rhythm & blues tunes feel so funky. The result sounds rushed and nervous and doesn't sit like it should.
The drummer is generally a good player and a nice guy and not all the songs are affected. Unfortunately he is the one who gets gigs and is a founding member of the band so I have to accept it. It's otherwise a good band with a great repertoire and the chances of me finding something better or even similar are scant. It's better than not playing at all. In my more than half a century of playing live there have been too few bands where every player carries their weight. That's how it is.
Tempo is intertwined with feel. Dragging and racing the tempo can spoil a song. The point about making sure the tempo is comfortable for the vocalist is dead on. Some songs are very wordy…it’s easy to play most Chuck Berry tunes so fast that it’s hard to get all the word out.
I'm currently playing with a guitarist that I've worked with for 40 years off and on and he deoes two covers that I hate playing because in one case he slows the tempo down to where it sounds like sludge and the other one is a CCR cover that he actually turned into a single chord drone.
I'm currently playing with a guitarist that I've worked with for 40 years off and on and he deoes two covers that I hate playing because in one case he slows the tempo down to where it sounds like sludge and the other one is a CCR cover that he actually turned into a single chord drone.
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Yeah, I've been fortunate to have worked with some really good singers, but the rock world sometimes treats singing as an afterthoughtYou left out singers. Voice is an instrument... Although many times it's hard to tell....
Hit the nail on he head with lack of musicianship. Takes skill, experience, taste and generosity to present any ensemble piece well to an audience. And confidence.
If the player's tone is thin, and technique sloppy, playing faster can seem like a way to cover that up. If the band's overall sound is thin you might need to speed up a bit, especially live. But it should still groove.
Putting it another way, if no one's singing, dancing or tapping their foot you're not doing it right.
Thanks for the Delbert reference, a couple of new songs on the playlist
If the player's tone is thin, and technique sloppy, playing faster can seem like a way to cover that up. If the band's overall sound is thin you might need to speed up a bit, especially live. But it should still groove.
Putting it another way, if no one's singing, dancing or tapping their foot you're not doing it right.
Thanks for the Delbert reference, a couple of new songs on the playlist
First thing to do with a new song is to establish the groove and tempo it works at. And that's the template for everything after that regarding that song.
If you can't do that..you don't have a song..you have a mess. Nobody...bar the musically tone deaf, will enjoy it. Even some of the players in the band.
Learn to feel the song rather than just knock out the notes.
This is a very common rule 101 fail. imo.
If the gtr doesn't get that..get a more mature player.
If you can't do that..you don't have a song..you have a mess. Nobody...bar the musically tone deaf, will enjoy it. Even some of the players in the band.
Learn to feel the song rather than just knock out the notes.
This is a very common rule 101 fail. imo.
If the gtr doesn't get that..get a more mature player.
This problem with familiarity is true. I see it a lot in pianists. They rip through songs as they practice it and get used to playing at that tempo. But they are practicing without singing or hearing the vocal and a rhythm section, which sound bad when playing at that tempo.
I tell people (guitarists, keys, drummers) that count off too fast that before starting, they need to actually sing (and just in their head) a few bars for the song.
I play in a big band, often playing jazz and swing numbers. Sometimes when listening to Youtube recording of another band playing the song, I'm amazed at the (too) fast tempos that they kick off. Some people think that fast means more energy, but there is a limit. Once you get too fast, the groove is destroyed. With swing songs, the signature lope feel begins to disappear as the tempo gets faster. Play fast enough and the swing turns into straight eights and the feel of the song is destroyed.
FullumMusic
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Yes and no.
Some people are just unwilling or unable to change or improve. No amount of reason will win them over, especially if playing at the "right" tempo is more difficult than the tempo they're comfortable at. This will be an uphill battle all day long.
But some people actually want to improve and learn and care about the music more than their own playing. Here you have a chance!
My biggest suggestion is Body Movement.
A lot of musicians just stand there and play. There's no physical interaction with the music beyond playing the notes. But when you physically move your body to the music you can feel the tempo is off. Tapping a foot is useful, but a lot of musicians will just speed their foot up or down to whatever speed they want to play as opposed to playing to their foot tap. Full body movements are harder to speed up or slow down because there's a natural arc to the back & forth, or up & down.
Mid-tempo songs you can get a nice smooth shoulder groove, dipping on the downbeat and backbeat. If you speed up you can feel it, because you have to cut your whole upper-body's swing short like pushing a swing before/after it's at its peak. It's physically disruptive.
For slower tempo you can get shoulders & hips involved. For faster tempos, head bops. But there's a back & forth or up & down that if you go too fast, your movements get incredibly stilted. You can literally feel the tempo.
It doesn't have to be full-on dancing. Body movement is so critical to tempo and groove. Also, if the band is playing completely unmoved by the music, why would the audience be moved? But that's a whole other topic. But yeah, just listen to the original tunes with the guitarists and have them move their body in time with the song. Then make sure they're moving their body along with it when they play. If they're worth half their weight in salt they'll feel how playing too fast often makes the song worse.
I respect your experience--especially since I've played with my share of "musicianship-challenged players"!--but I'll just say that my experience has been a little different in this regard. Regardless, in the end, it's probably not ideally productive to get too caught up in generalizing about who does this the most. IMO it's probably going to be more useful to focus on specific solutions to specific situations.
