Guitarists and the volume war

[jazzyvee]

I recenly left a band I played every week with for about 16 months because of the loud stage volume. It's a shame as they are a really good bunch of musicians & friends who play really well.

 

[Tony In Philly]

How about recommending tube amp attenuators? That way they can get the desired sound without the full on volume that cranking the amp gives?

 

[Frank77]

Smart guitar players are few and far between, but they're out there: I play with one. During a recording session he asked the engineer to turn his track down, saying "The focus of this genre is not guitar, right now it is too loud and the mix and it is distracting".

Keep looking until you find one like that, then never let him/her go.

 

[buldog5151bass]

There are three things that I absolutely will not put up with - excessive volume, musicians not being prepared, and musicians being under the influence. Other than that, I am as easygoing as it gets.

 

[gt96g]

I've been using genz benz rigs for about 8 years or so. The clarity and definition I get in a mix is great and the sound guys always go right for the DI.

Love those amps.

 

[Phalex]

I won the volume war in my band by turning my amp way down.

They would be like “I can’t hear the bass “. And I’d be like “Yeah? I wonder why that is?”

It actually worked for me. Maybe it’ll work for you too.

 

[Spectrum]

Everybody here is being so grown-up about this, so let me be the one to suggest the childish response: up the power of your rig and blow those *&% out of the water! Then quit.

 

[Luciferiad]

This time around I'm pretty lucky that we don't seem to have volume wars. I let the guitarist adjust to the drummer, who actually has fantastic volume control himself. Then I adjust just enough to cut through the mix and hear myself. Through some kind of serendipity, we're a very well-adjusted trio.

Ironically, when the guitar player and I worked together in a different project, it was always a battle that usually ended up with us practically blasting the audience back out the door. Of course, the drummer in that project only had one volume: loud. We used to joke he actually hated his drums.

I hated his drums because he had like 12 cymbals and they were all on individual stands and he refused to buy a rack.

Anyway, I'm just commiserating. I don't really have any advice beyond what's already been offered.

 

[bearfoot]

Pro tip: we are all guitar players. There are just as many tales of asshat bassists with stage volume so loud it washes out the entire venue, such as the Les Claypool story I heard the other day.

Yeah, I've been there. Stood next to the board man and he shows me the faders are all down to zero on the guitar stacks, and they are still too loud. Dudes.

Haven't had it happen on my stage, as yet, but I don't work a rock festival.

In fact I had a bassist insist on only using his Fender Rumble combo, believing it was sufficient for the outdoor venue. Good player, it was too bad really. I just wanted to add a little bass in the mains to balance with the vocal/guitar. With just the combo onstage, and a creek behind them, there was no bass presence.

I digress. This all just sounds like unprofessional / amateur guitarists. Again, I sympathize. I think you have to be assertive, blunt, but not rude, in these situations. You also, unfortunately, often have to engineer the solutions yourself.

Like the guitarist with noisy FX chain, is no different than a bass guitarist with a noisy FX chain. So we help them out. Some noise is normal, like the Boss CS-3 , as glorious as it is, makes a very noisy overall signal. You just have to put a gate on it and deal.

Those other guys need amp stands.

There's nothing wrong with a volume pedal, except that they are all tone suckers (except the Morleys.) Problem, I think, is in switching preamp modeling on the fly (or cranking gain). I don't know what to say here. There is a way to set up a guitar amp that the distortion tone is the same volume as the clean, when the switch is thrown.

But needing to adjust soundboard levels on the fly is the Soundman's job. That's all I do is watch the board like a hawk, and correct peaks , balances, and EQ's as they happen. You expect the guitar to boost on a solo or heavy rhythm part, and you build your mix from the ground up knowing this.

 

[Felken]

Two guitarists have short 12" 40 watt tube combos and are chronically turning up to hear themselves better because the sound is blasting their legs instead of their ears. Our sound guy can only do so much.

One guitarist is constantly adjusting his volume knobs on his guitar and using a volume pedal to change his own stage volume. Sound guy has to compensate constantly.

One guitarist has a kick back stand but doesn't use it.

One guitarist has a really noisy effect chain and his attempts to debug it are fruitless.

One guitarist has a DI on his amp that is a nice clean DI signal into the PA. The other has an old school fender and would rather go from the amp's preamp out into the mixer than shell out for a guitar mic.

How many guitarists do you have in your band?

 

[40Hz]

I’ve done whatever I could to get the bands I’ve played with to commit to sane stage and house levels. If it remained an issue after discussion I usually walked.

Most times the same guys (it’s never the women in my experience) that love to crank their amps to “get their sound” are the same wankers who say “Gimme a LOT of bass!” just before they launch into an interminable self-indulgent solo.

When dealing with this sort of guitarist, I simply refuse to turn up. If you need an ocean of loud and low sludge underneath you to prop up your boring seven minute solo, get somebody else.

 

[Ellery]

Sounds like fun

 

[Big Heavy Bass]

I see bands doing this now where the amps are set up on the side of the stage so the sound isn't directed straight out to the crowd.

The guitar player who can't turn down seems to be a frequent problem in bands. Eventually your going to lose a gig because of the bands volume. For some that is a wake up call...for others they don't care as they have led themselves to believe that they can't play and or get their sound unless their amps are at a certain volume.

 

[klejst]

Guitarists being guitarists. Instead of talent and "bandmateship" it's usually all about ego and who has the biggest stack on stage and in their pants...

 

[Wasnex]

The "compromise" I have alwways used is this.

"You can turn it up as loud as you want and won't hear a WORD from me..... as long as your rig is pointed at your head."

You can literally rig up a 2X4 to be an amp prop. My first question is why doesn't the one guy "loke a kickback stand"? Is it because he knows his rig would tesr his face off?

In my experience most guitarists don't like the bright sound that comes off the center of the cone. Instead, they like the experience of being surrounded by warm, baked tube tone. To use a tilt back they need to totally change their EQ and probably add a compressor because they won't be able to turn up enough enough to get any tube goodness without blowing their heads off. There is no replacement for the sense of space, resonance, and power they get from pumping the room full of volume. Basically their entire philosophy on how to get a sound has to change.

IMHO there is a some validity to blasting away, but generally the negatives outweigh the benefits for everyone except the guitarist...it's usually a very selfish and self-serving approach except at the very largest venues where you can get away with running a huge tube amp at optimum drive levels without blowing anyone away

 

[Wasnex]

How about recommending tube amp attenuators? That way they can get the desired sound without the full on volume that cranking the amp gives?

I have one of the best available...it's not the panacea it's cracked up to be. As the attenuation is cranked up the sound goes dead. Nice to take a little edge off (6db). Besides you may notice the guitarists (in the OP) are having trouble hearing themselves, so they continually turn up throughout the night.

 

[David A. Davis]

I wouldn’t be able to tolerate a volume war. It’s stupid. If the guitarist has to crank their amp to get the tone they want then they have too much (watts) amp. For crying out loud, Tilt the amp! I don’t understand the logic of going ampless and running everything through the monitors either. IMO the only things that sound good through monitors are vocals, guitars, keys and drums if done right. There isn’t a monitor made that can reproduce bass as well as a good quality bass amp.

 

[Tony In Philly]

I don’t understand the logic of going ampless and running everything through the monitors either. IMO the only things that sound good through monitors are vocals, guitars, keys and drums if done right. There isn’t a monitor made that can reproduce bass as well as a good quality bass amp.

True - unless you have a soundman doing the monitor mix properly, it's always going to be iffy.

 

[David A. Davis]

True - unless you have a soundman doing the monitor mix properly, it's always going to be iffy.[/QUOTE

Stole this from another thread but applies here I think.

At the higher level (and obviously larger) shows, this is not often true... the PA will dominate and the bass amp serves as a reference, as a tool to generate the basic tone that is then translated to what you are trying to achieve with your on-stage sound out in the audience. Your rig sounds completely different a couple hundred feet from the stage, it's the sound guy's job to make the transition from near field to far field as uniform and close to the original (as listened to in near field) as possible. This is how it's done in the pro, large venue world by mature adults.

 

[JRA]

One guitarist has a kick back stand but doesn't use it.

sounds like drummer-think to me.

Why can’t guitarists be reasonable team players

few and far between, IMO.

it's usually all about ego and who has the biggest stack on stage and in their pants...

most of the louder guitar cats use potatoes for that...i'm sure of it!