Guitarists Downtuning

[socialleper]

I don't run into those problems. I haven't played in a band that played in standard E since high school. When everything you are doing down tuned, you know the notes. Or you just use fret numbers as a short hand.

 

[BlueShox]

It sounds like you just need to drop everything a half step, I don’t get what is so difficult...

 

[obimark]

I don't love downtuning much unless the whole band downtunes a half step and plays every song in that tuning. And what I mean is you use the same hand position as if you were in standard tuning, so like Guns N Roses or Van Halen or other groups who use this, basically when you play an A, its at the fifth fret, it's just a lower note.

This is a different mindset then downtuning and then trying to play the actual chord tones rather than the "new" downtuned ones.

BUT All members in the band need to be in the same ½ step down all the time. So for instance if we play Whole Lotta Love- its still Open E, 5th fret, 7th fret.

 

[juggahnaught]

Definitely not looking to change bands, they're top guys, this is the only issue.

It's frustrating though, we're putting together a setlist of songs with original versions in a host different tunings. To keep things simple, we've agreed the guitars will stay tuned to Eb. The problem is that I have no idea (other than if the original is in Eb) what key they're going to turn up to rehearsal having learnt it in. When I ask 'ok guys what key are we playing it in', they just tell me a tuning, it's like 'ok thanks but that doesn't help me'. If they understood what a key signature was it would make things alot easier.

Do they have good ears? Do you?

Your solution might be to use something like Guitar Pro to do a quick and dirty MIDI transcription, or even create chord charts in IReal Pro and use the playback feature. (Or hell, even just the first chord.) If you can all match a recorded pitch, then there's no problem come rehearsal - you can simply bypass the verbal communication step in lieu of the actual music. (You say they're top guys - my guess is that they've got good ears, or at least that's my hope.)

 

[C Nolan]

It sounds like you just need to drop everything a half step, I don’t get what is so difficult...

Nothing is difficult about it, but it's nice to be able to turn up knowing the parts exactly ad they will be played not having to adjust on the fly. I know they're going to be tuned to Eb, but I don't know if that means they will play the song half a step down from the recording we've referenced or if it'll be the same or it could even be a half step up. It seems that sometimes they learn the song with the guitar in standard then at practice when they've downtuned we're half a stop lower than I expected, or they might have tuned to Eb to learn it in which case it's the same. Part of the problem is that I have no idea what tunings the original songs were played in so it's not like I can predict what the difference will be. Just got to learn it and be prepared play it all a fret or 2 higher up or lower down, which is harder with BVs to think of.

It would be a whole load easier if I could just get a straight answer when I ask what key will we be playing it in.

 

[C Nolan]

Do they have good ears? Do you?

Your solution might be to use something like Guitar Pro to do a quick and dirty MIDI transcription, or even create chord charts in IReal Pro and use the playback feature. (Or hell, even just the first chord.) If you can all match a recorded pitch, then there's no problem come rehearsal - you can simply bypass the verbal communication step in lieu of the actual music. (You say they're top guys - my guess is that they've got good ears, or at least that's my hope.)

They're top guys as in I get on with them, not that they're amazing musicians. You can probably tell that the band isn't professional by the fact that the guitarist doesn't know what a key signature is.

 

[CallMeAl]

I’ve played with guitarists that use drop pedals, or capos, and still talk in “open” chord shapes. I’ve played with Eb and Bb horn players. I’ve played with cats that don’t use Nashville numbers, and others that only use Nashville numbers.

Music is a language, and within that there are dialects. In a perfect world we would all speak the same dialect, but that’s often not the case. IMO if you’re going to stick with these guys: if you know what’s going on, and know how to translate into “their” dialect, doing so is the high road and the path to least frustration.

my 2 ¢, of course. Good luck

 

[dougjwray]

Here's a related thread, started by yours truly.
I often find myself wishing I could communicate with guitarists by saying, "Please pretend I'm a piano player, who knows nothing about detuning or using capos."
Allow me to vent about internet charts

 

[pie_man_25]

Honestly, last band I was in played in Eb. We honestly must dropped the flats on everything and referred to everything as though we played in E. We knew what was up, it was just easier than saying flat all the time.

I can understand OP's problem, especially in D standard or drop D tuning - doubly so if it's just one guy in a different tuning, but I guess I don't think of it as a huge issue in context. Kinda like dealing with a Bb trumpet IMO, but just kinda.

 

[Element Zero]

I used to hate dealing with alternate tunings, it's the reason I got my five string about a year into playing the bass. These days though I take more of a "can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em" approach and would just dedicate a bass to Eb tuning for the sake of ease for the band. If they are permanently in Eb then you might as well do it too so you have the low Eb when needed.

This. Exactly this.

 

[bassrique]

That's just incompent playing on their part. The overreaching problem is our Sonic space is getting crunched from below by the kick featured heavier in the mix and the downtimes guitars. With some music there really is no need for a bass player.

 

[jdh3000]

I find quite often that when guitarists tune to Eb/ D / drop D it causes a couple of problems.

1st is when trying to teach them a chord progression they treat the fretboard as if they were still in standard tuning, so for example you tell them to play an A and they play 5th fret on the E string then (because they're downtuned a whole step) they look at you funny and say 'you mean B' (7th fret).

The other problem is with regards to key signatures. You play a song which is in the key of G (when played in standard tuning) but the guitarist is downtuned to D and wants to play the same hand positions which obviously makes everything a tone lower. No problem i'll shift my hand a whole step down the neck. You confirm with them that the song is now in F? And again they look at you funny and say, 'no it's in D'.

I'm just curious if anyone has experienced this problem and how people have approached the situation?

Yes, we run into a similar situation when the guitarist capos. It's total confusion unless we call the chord as the shape he is playing.

The numbering system would help greatly if he understood this, but so many are reluctant to learn it for some unknown reason.

If you know it and can get your guitar player to use it, it'll never matter what key you are in... I, IV, V translates across the board.

It's very easy to learn and the internet abound in tutorials.

 

[Ewo]

No point talking about it. Play the correct tonics for whatever they’re actually playing and let them call it whatever they want. When they offer suggestions, use your ears to hear what it actually is and don’t pay attention to what they say it is.

Yeah. I sometimes run into this kind of communication problem when working with guitarists who capo an instrument in standard tuning.

 

[LBS-bass]

It sounds like you just need to drop everything a half step, I don’t get what is so difficult...

Some people don't want to downtune because they don't like the sound or feel. I will downtune if I really am married to playing a certain song a certain way and the singer wants it down a half a step and that makes it harder to play unless I retune; this is mainly true for songs in E or Eb where there is a droning low note. But if it's just a matter of the instrumentalists always wanting to be a half step down, I like the way my bass feels and sounds better if I leave it alone and just make my own notes about where I need to be playing. What they do is their business and it need not affect me unless I want to be difficult.

 

[LBS-bass]

Yeah. I sometimes run into this kind of communication problem when working with guitarists who capo an instrument in standard tuning.

Yep, this is the other place where it happens. Once I figure it out, I just make my own notes about the actual key and play it the way it sounds.

 

[OptimalOptimus]

Transposing instruments are like that.

It would be a nightmare to change the name of the fret event though they are now a different pitch.

Trumpet player will learn a fingering to make a C and will always call that fingering a C no matter the type of Trumpet they have and so no matter the pitch it is going to give them

 

[drumvsbass]

With guitarists, I find nothing short of a gun in their mouth will work.
Sorry what were we talking about?

 

[juggahnaught]

The reason the guitarists are looking at you funny is because they're right, and you're wrong. When the band tunes our E strings to some other pitch, then that pitch becomes our temporary "E."

I absolutely disagree with this, but it looks as though this subject has been talked about on Talkbass before: The host band ruined the jam.

It looks like you edited your post while I was typing this (the quote is different than the post) but I do agree with you about being able to speak and understand the "language" of a transposing instrument; I do agree that it's a good skill for a musician to have and that the burden of communication should be on you and not others (if we all took responsibility for being understood in communication, imagine how great things would be!). However, I do not agree that the key for a transposing instrument is the actual key, and I never will.

The guitarists should know that they are in a transposing key and be able to communicate in concert pitch (taking responsibility for being understood in their communication). The OP, ideally, should understand where the guitarists are coming from and translate to their language if necessary (taking responsibility for being understood in their communication) - but it wouldn't be necessary if the guitarists knew what they were doing.

 

[vid1900]

Even worse is when the guitarist does not have any markers on his fretboard, and he leans in to show you what he is playing.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

I find quite often that when guitarists tune to Eb/ D / drop D it causes a couple of problems.

1st is when trying to teach them a chord progression they treat the fretboard as if they were still in standard tuning, so for example you tell them to play an A and they play 5th fret on the E string then (because they're downtuned a whole step) they look at you funny and say 'you mean B' (7th fret).

The other problem is with regards to key signatures. You play a song which is in the key of G (when played in standard tuning) but the guitarist is downtuned to D and wants to play the same hand positions which obviously makes everything a tone lower. No problem i'll shift my hand a whole step down the neck. You confirm with them that the song is now in F? And again they look at you funny and say, 'no it's in D'.

I'm just curious if anyone has experienced this problem and how people have approached the situation?

I dont like downtuning. It screws me up having one string that's off sequence. Rolling around, and totally forget that I need to go two steps up on that string. I don't get it. Especially when guitarists are playing root - minor 3rd, and have to stretch 4 notes down on the next string to hit it. Makes no sense to me. They can just put their pinky down on the same string. It seems like they just think it's cooler that way.