Guitarists playing bass?

[Bard2dbone]

What is it that drives the animosity that a lot of bass players seem to harbor toward guitarists, calling them "guitards" and claiming that they somehow can't possibly "get it" about bass? It's petty and it just makes you (if you act this way) look insecure. We're all in it together, folks.

It's because there is a definite philosophical difference between the typical bassist and the typical guitarist. Most bassists are focused on making the band sound better so the song will sound good. GOOD guitarists are as well. But a sadly large portion of the guitarists that many of us have worked with are fully convinced that the band is there just to help people pay attention to THEM.

It even makes sense when you look at how most people start on their instruments. Bassists are generally aimed at accompaniment from the beginning - "Every band need a bass player." Guitarists often learn how to burn off a solo long before they learn to play a backing part.

That's the basis of the different philosophy, right there. We're there to support the band. The guitarists we complain about the ones who are sure that the band is only there to support them.

Mature guitarists, the ones who don't get called 'Guitards', approach ensemble playing more like a bassist. Generally they are also the guitarists who do best playing bass.


A great way to detect for attitude is to ask who they play with: Guitards say 'My band...' Real guitarists say ' This band I'm in...'

 

[makanudo]

It's because there is a definite philosophical difference between the typical bassist and the typical guitarist. Most bassists are focused on making the band sound better so the song will sound good. GOOD guitarists are as well. But a sadly large portion of the guitarists that many of us have worked with are fully convinced that the band is there just to help people pay attention to THEM.

It even makes sense when you look at how most people start on their instruments. Bassists are generally aimed at accompaniment from the beginning - "Every band need a bass player." Guitarists often learn how to burn off a solo long before they learn to play a backing part.

That's the basis of the different philosophy, right there. We're there to support the band. The guitarists we complain about the ones who are sure that the band is only there to support them.

Mature guitarists, the ones who don't get called 'Guitards', approach ensemble playing more like a bassist. Generally they are also the guitarists who do best playing bass.


A great way to detect for attitude is to ask who they play with: Guitards say 'My band...' Real guitarists say ' This band I'm in...'

If this was Facebook i would have liked this with several accounts and comented: +1000

thats the truth!

 

[ggunn]

It's because there is a definite philosophical difference between the typical bassist and the typical guitarist. Most bassists are focused on making the band sound better so the song will sound good. GOOD guitarists are as well. But a sadly large portion of the guitarists that many of us have worked with are fully convinced that the band is there just to help people pay attention to THEM.

It even makes sense when you look at how most people start on their instruments. Bassists are generally aimed at accompaniment from the beginning - "Every band need a bass player." Guitarists often learn how to burn off a solo long before they learn to play a backing part.

That's the basis of the different philosophy, right there. We're there to support the band. The guitarists we complain about the ones who are sure that the band is only there to support them.

Mature guitarists, the ones who don't get called 'Guitards', approach ensemble playing more like a bassist. Generally they are also the guitarists who do best playing bass.


A great way to detect for attitude is to ask who they play with: Guitards say 'My band...' Real guitarists say ' This band I'm in...'

Fair enough, but there are bassists with bad attitudes as well. I try to evaluate musicians as each a case unto him/herself without resorting to stereotypes.

And lead singers are a whole lot worse than guitar players!

 

[RAM]

It's because there is a definite philosophical difference between the typical bassist and the typical guitarist. Most bassists are focused on making the band sound better so the song will sound good. GOOD guitarists are as well. But a sadly large portion of the guitarists that many of us have worked with are fully convinced that the band is there just to help people pay attention to THEM.

It even makes sense when you look at how most people start on their instruments. Bassists are generally aimed at accompaniment from the beginning - "Every band need a bass player." Guitarists often learn how to burn off a solo long before they learn to play a backing part.

That's the basis of the different philosophy, right there. We're there to support the band. The guitarists we complain about the ones who are sure that the band is only there to support them.

Mature guitarists, the ones who don't get called 'Guitards', approach ensemble playing more like a bassist. Generally they are also the guitarists who do best playing bass.


A great way to detect for attitude is to ask who they play with: Guitards say 'My band...' Real guitarists say ' This band I'm in...'

I think, to illustrate this point to the...Nth degree...I'm posting another ad from Craigslist that supports your point. IMO, it comes across as nothing short of insulting!

Hard Rock Band looks for untechnical bass player who can pin a groove (Chicago)

Hard rock band looking for punk minded bass player, though we're more like punk/metal/progressive/hard rock, etc rolled into one,,,,

Influences/Sounds like: Zep, Wolfmother, Heavier Floyd, Jane's, Motorhead, Some Surf Stuff, Queen, Sex Pistols, Alice In Chains, Mars Volta, anything and everything in the hard rock context pretty much, etc..


We kill,,,,,, our guitarist, drummer, vox all smoke,,,but we need a minimalist root note, picking, bass player who can still play uptempo stuff,,,,once again, we are looking for someone to hold down the fort while the other members go off,,,,,,,

Once again, if you enjoy just pinning the groove,,,and playing the root notes with a bad ass sound and have a good meter call us,,,,,you do NOT need to be that technical at all,,,,the rest of the band more than covers for that,,,,,

We are all super sweet people,,,and play all the top clubs,,,Metro, Double Door etc.,,,,this is a good chance to get into one of the top hard rock bands in town,,,,

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]I especially like the quote, "...the rest of the band more than covers for that..."

I wonder if that's how the ad read when Michael Anthony hooked up with Van Halen (just kidding).

 

[Kevinmach]

I wonder if that's how the ad read when Michael Anthony hooked up with Van Halen (just kidding).

It's funny that you mentioned Anthony at the end of this thread, because no joke, this is the exact example I was thinking of when I read the ad.

Ironically, this is the same reason I don't find the ad the least bit offensive. As Bad2theBone said, the bassist is usually playing an accompanying, grounding roll in the music.

And I often wonder if Geddy had been in VH instead of Rush, would it really go with VHs music and would they enjoyed the same success?

You have to admit, it would have changed the style of the music entirely, and I am not sure how it would work with VH's more bluesy, rock n roll style. It wouldn't have worked with Aerosmith or AC/DC either. Those bands really need their "Michael Anthonys".

Not many bands like Rush or Dream Theater can pull off having everyone in the band rocking out at the time, and still keep the music down to an appropriate level of complexity that is palatable to the average listener.
So in that sense, I will give the guys with that ad credit for having a vision of what they were going for, and not simply looking for the most talented guy available at the time. In the long run, both the band and guy applying for the position will have a much happier relationship.

 

[RAM]

It's funny that you mentioned Anthony at the end of this thread, because no joke, this is the exact example I was thinking of when I read the ad.

Ironically, this is the same reason I don't find the ad the least bit offensive. As Bad2theBone said, the bassist is usually playing an accompanying, grounding roll in the music.

And I often wonder if Geddy had been in VH instead of Rush, would it really go with VHs music and would they enjoyed the same success?

You have to admit, it would have changed the style of the music entirely, and I am not sure how it would work with VH's more bluesy, rock n roll style. It wouldn't have worked with Aerosmith or AC/DC either. Those bands really need their "Michael Anthonys".

Not many bands like Rush or Dream Theater can pull off having everyone in the band rocking out at the time, and still keep the music down to an appropriate level of complexity that is palatable to the average listener.
So in that sense, I will give the guys with that ad credit for having a vision of what they were going for, and not simply looking for the most talented guy available at the time. In the long run, both the band and guy applying for the position will have a much happier relationship.

I don't disagree with you...it was just a fun poke at a bass player I don't particularly enjoy listening to. Hijacking my own thread and in response to the Michael Anthony thing, I have a few recollections of interviews and discussions surrounding the very popular 90s song, "Poundcake" from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge."

In an interview in Bass Player Magazine several years ago, Anthony, who was clearly annoyed by the lack of recognition he gets, commented on how difficult that song is to play, pounding out a 16th note groove for the entire song, keeping time as well as he did, etc. He was, pardon the expression, tooting his own horn.

What's interesting is a few years ago there was an extensive thread here on TB about him where one poster acknowledged being in the studio during the recording of that song (or some other similar, intimate knowledge of the recording), whereby the poster stated Anthony didn't even play bass on that song - Eddie did. And, apparently it took Eddie a couple days of hacking at it just to get the bass line right.

Of course, I admit I wasn't there and am only reporting what I've read.

Back on topic: the reason that ad in Craigslist that annoyed me is because of the implied message (or at least how I inferred it) that the bass player doesn't need talent. We can all argue there are great bass players who are minimalists; sometimes that talent comes from the form of a great hook, specific dynamics, or a particular groove (or even technique in some cases) that require a skill level that's often overlooked. I think it says something for that kind of music that's a bit disturbing to me. But, then again, that's just me. Others may find that kind of opportunity exciting.

 

[leadfingers]

Even though Bard2dbone basically summed it up and a big +1 to the post, I thought I'd throw my perspective in as a long time guitar player that has switched to bass.
When I learned to play, it was in a high school garage band and I was to fill the rhythm guitarist spot. This being the case I learned how to add to the support, and possibly groove, to the song and band as a whole.
With this in mind, I can look back and see how I was always gravitating towards working with and keying off how the time and feel jelled with the drummer and bass player. In fact, when I got in other bands, whether playing rhythm or "lead" I still connected more with the drummer and even would tend to work myself back to the right hand, front side of the drummer where I had first learned to enjoy the act of making music.
So, to sum up my really long winded ramble, it is all about the person and the feel as to whether or not one is a "good" bassist. IMHO. If someone has that, I think that they can be the best bassist their talent will allow.
I have switched to bass now and love it. I'm not in a group right now, but am really looking forward to getting a rig and playing again.

 

[Kevinmach]

I don't disagree with you...it was just a fun poke at a bass player I don't particularly enjoy listening to. Hijacking my own thread and in response to the Michael Anthony thing, I have a few recollections of interviews and discussions surrounding the very popular 90s song, "Poundcake" from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge."

In an interview in Bass Player Magazine several years ago, Anthony, who was clearly annoyed by the lack of recognition he gets, commented on how difficult that song is to play, pounding out a 16th note groove for the entire song, keeping time as well as he did, etc. He was, pardon the expression, tooting his own horn.

What's interesting is a few years ago there was an extensive thread here on TB about him where one poster acknowledged being in the studio during the recording of that song (or some other similar, intimate knowledge of the recording), whereby the poster stated Anthony didn't even play bass on that song - Eddie did. And, apparently it took Eddie a couple days of hacking at it just to get the bass line right.

Of course, I admit I wasn't there and am only reporting what I've read.

Back on topic: the reason that ad in Craigslist that annoyed me is because of the implied message (or at least how I inferred it) that the bass player doesn't need talent. We can all argue there are great bass players who are minimalists; sometimes that talent comes from the form of a great hook, specific dynamics, or a particular groove (or even technique in some cases) that require a skill level that's often overlooked. I think it says something for that kind of music that's a bit disturbing to me. But, then again, that's just me. Others may find that kind of opportunity exciting.

No worries, I just thought it was ironic that while I reading the ad I thought of MA, and then you mentioned too at the end of the thread. LOL.

My feeling's are mixed on MA (to continue with your highjack). He's does those classic VH backing vocals, he seems comfortable in that role and is not fighting with the spot light, and he seems to be the only member of VH that everyone can get along with, both past a present members. Also, though I have never been overly impressed with his playing, it seems like the appropriate amount at times, and for some reason, they always put him really deep in the final mix-it's not easy to hear what he's doing (I didn't even think about the 16th notes in Pound Cake but as soon as you said it, I remembered them).

On the flip side, I saw him do one of the silliest bass solos ever on the either the OU812 tour or Carnal Knowledge, I don't recall which it was. It was basically a lot of effects and noise, devoid of almost any real content. Of course the crowd cheered, but I have a feeling all the musicians in the audience were really unimpressed. That all being said, I suspect that if MA had not been roving around southern California in the late 70s and happened to hook up with VH, we would not know who he is today. Right place, right time.

Funny story about Eddie playing his part though, I wonder if it's true.

In the end, I agree with you. Aside from maybe having to concentrate less on playing, and thus being able to enjoy the live experience and environment more, I could simply not get into a band/music where I was expected to play the kind of stuff MA or any similar bassist does (and there are a lot of them). And VH was one of my favorite bands growing up.

it is all about the person and the feel as to whether or not one is a "good" bassist. IMHO. If someone has that, I think that they can be the best bassist their talent will allow.
I have switched to bass now and love it. I'm not in a group right now, but am really looking forward to getting a rig and playing again.

I agree with this too, and which is why I am hesitant to throw guys in lower profile bass players under the bus. Clearly, some music is better suited for that style, and clearly we cannot all be Geddy Lee-you have to do the best that hard work and your God-given abilities provide you with, and have to be comfortable with it that you can reproduce it consistently, night after nite. In the end, I think that's more important in a bass player than raw technical ability. On a side note, I have also switch from guitar and am really enjoying the bass experience.

 

[suraci]

And very seldom will the twain meet.

Subjective topic, but here is my empirical observation.
I may have met one or two guitarists who had real bass talent.

From where I am perched many primary bass players need help let alone guitarists. There are exceptions, bc there are exceptions to every generalized observation.

But again.... guitarists seldom play bass as well as the BEST bass players- seldom.

 

[Hamrhed]

guitarists seldom play bass as well as the BEST bass players- seldom

That begs the question: name a guitar player that was so good at his bass playing that he had a distinct style on the bass! I cant think of many at all- save one: Tom Scholz from Boston...

Knowing that the vast majority of Boston, Dont Look Back, and Third Stage is Scholz on bass- that man had a very (imo) unique and excellent style of bass playing. I think that Tom is an example of not only a unique bass playing style- but a guitarist who really worked at getting a bass track that glued his songs together instead of a simple track that stayed out of the way of the drums & guitars

 

[RAM]

No worries, I just thought it was ironic that while I reading the ad I thought of MA, and then you mentioned too at the end of the thread. LOL.

My feeling's are mixed on MA (to continue with your highjack). He's does those classic VH backing vocals, he seems comfortable in that role and is not fighting with the spot light, and he seems to be the only member of VH that everyone can get along with, both past a present members. Also, though I have never been overly impressed with his playing, it seems like the appropriate amount at times, and for some reason, they always put him really deep in the final mix-it's not easy to hear what he's doing (I didn't even think about the 16th notes in Pound Cake but as soon as you said it, I remembered them).

On the flip side, I saw him do one of the silliest bass solos ever on the either the OU812 tour or Carnal Knowledge, I don't recall which it was. It was basically a lot of effects and noise, devoid of almost any real content. Of course the crowd cheered, but I have a feeling all the musicians in the audience were really unimpressed. That all being said, I suspect that if MA had not been roving around southern California in the late 70s and happened to hook up with VH, we would not know who he is today. Right place, right time.

Funny story about Eddie playing his part though, I wonder if it's true.

In the end, I agree with you. Aside from maybe having to concentrate less on playing, and thus being able to enjoy the live experience and environment more, I could simply not get into a band/music where I was expected to play the kind of stuff MA or any similar bassist does (and there are a lot of them). And VH was one of my favorite bands growing up.



I agree with this too, and which is why I am hesitant to throw guys in lower profile bass players under the bus. Clearly, some music is better suited for that style, and clearly we cannot all be Geddy Lee-you have to do the best that hard work and your God-given abilities provide you with, and have to be comfortable with it that you can reproduce it consistently, night after nite. In the end, I think that's more important in a bass player than raw technical ability. On a side note, I have also switch from guitar and am really enjoying the bass experience.

As far as MA goes, I've seen VH a few times and was always unimpressed (being a bassist myself, of course) with the sound-effect driven solos he had. I've got their live disc "Right Here Right Now" in which there's an extensive bass solo. Perhaps MA really played that, but it sounds to me as if Eddie played a guitar solo on bass...it's a lot of tapping and really not that impressive - it lacks any kind of melody or structure, which Eddie has often been accused of being, by such greats as Eric Clapton (or so the story goes). If my theory that Eddie overdubbed the bass solo in the producing of the live disc, it further supports my original statement that it's a guitarist sounding like a guitarist playing bass, not a bass player playing bass.

 

[Bard2dbone]

It's funny that you all used Michael Anthony as the example of lame bass. Way back in the late '80's and early '90's I was in a band that did pretty well locally for a while*. I had been kicked loose from a previous band for being A.) too technical, and B.) not looking "rock" enough. So I decided I was going to make myself irreplaceable. In addition to playing bass I wrote all our lyrics and a third of our music. And I sang backup and eventually lead.

The catch was that I would try to write technical, challenging, boy-this-is-fun-to-play bass parts that were difficult to sing over. So the other guys would tell me to simplify my bass parts while I had to sing and only stretch out in between vocal parts.

Now here's the part that was funny: They told me to try to be more like Michael Anthony, and less like Chris Squire.

* Yes. I know. The only thing more annoying than a has-been is a nearly-was.

 

[RAM]

It's funny that you all used Michael Anthony as the example of lame bass. Way back in the late '80's and early '90's I was in a band that did pretty well locally for a while*. I had been kicked loose from a previous band for being A.) too technical, and B.) not looking "rock" enough. So I decided I was going to make myself irreplaceable. In addition to playing bass I wrote all our lyrics and a third of our music. And I sang backup and eventually lead.

The catch was that I would try to write technical, challenging, boy-this-is-fun-to-play bass parts that were difficult to sing over. So the other guys would tell me to simplify my bass parts while I had to sing and only stretch out in between vocal parts.

Now here's the part that was funny: They told me to try to be more like Michael Anthony, and less like Chris Squire.

* Yes. I know. The only thing more annoying than a has-been is a nearly-was.

That's awesome! I was fired from my first band because I couldn't play Long Distance Runaround or Roundabout...of course I was turning 14 years old and had been playing all of 3 months...

Actually that's exactly WHY I set out to master such prog rock and classic rock complexities...fear of getting fired again for not being good enough.

Now that I'm getting my drivers license this year I impress people for how well I play with what I can do at age 16 (okay...I was 16 about 24 years ago, but...I remember it all as if...it were 26 years ago!) LOL

 

[RAM]

Side bar: nothing more annoying than hijacking my own thread and people follow me...

 

[dave-chaulk]

GEEZER BUTLER