As part of bass history I will at some point bring my old Kay with gut strings to a lesson to show the student. Lately I've had a couple of them have a really negative reaction to the whole concept and refuse to even touch or look at them because they involve the internal organs of sheep. I understand it from their perspective and try to explain the realities of the situation but I really don't have a convincing argument based on modern alternatives and sensibilities so have to give them their due.
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Double Bass Gut string aversion
- Thread starter Bruce Calin
- Start date
Ummm -- hide glue.
Yes, vegans have difficulty reconciling playing stringed instruments for the reasons of hide glue and gut strings.
But when you think that the animal sources for hide glue and gut serosa were harvested primarily for their meat, the fact that we respect the entire animal, should give some comfort.
Yes, vegans have difficulty reconciling playing stringed instruments for the reasons of hide glue and gut strings.
But when you think that the animal sources for hide glue and gut serosa were harvested primarily for their meat, the fact that we respect the entire animal, should give some comfort.
Might not work with teenagers. I tried it. Glue is not as much of an issue because you don't touch it. My own kids were the same way.
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I bring up my strings being made of animal gut yearly around halloween so all the kids can say gross!!
I keep a vegan diet, mostly for environmental reasons, and that is how I look at it.
I keep a vegan diet, mostly for environmental reasons, and that is how I look at it.
The idea of strings made from animal innards definitely felt weird to me for a while, but then when I played them extensively for the first time (albeit on viola da gamba, not bass) it became pretty moot because they don't feel like you're touching raw intestine: honestly due to the chemical and physical treatment the gut has to go through they feel similar-ish to plain nylon guitar strings.
For some of these kids it's more of a philosophical issue. I respect the fact that they care about issues like this and can express their objections to the usual arguments. We may have come to our own conclusions about this but they also have and we need to respect that. On a more practical level, based on personal experience I wouldn't want as a teacher to have to deal with student instruments with gut strings in any case. JMO
When you've been brought up in an incubator of outrage--which is what the Internet and particularly social media are--it is difficult to grasp nuance.
I suppose we all choose our battles. We are surrounded with injustices. Our living in America is full of injustices. From the moment we wake in the morning we are participating in harm to someone or something. If they don’t want to touch a gut string because it’s part of an animal that’s perfectly fine. But I’d tell my own teenage son that that is likely the least of his worries regarding harming life forms on earth and encourage him to zoom out a bit from the Kay bass with gut strings and consider the big picture when charting a personal path moving forward. Also consider that it might be easier to intonate easier on a steel string anyways.
I don't disagree with any of this. The thing that I like about this whole discussion with the students is that they are able to hold up their end of the issue with well reasoned and expressed arguments and not just "yuck!", and it does frequently lead to discussion of larger issues to the extent that we have to deliberately get back to bass playing. Also, having played gut strings as a beginner myself I really prefer steel strings for students anyway. There are enough other things to deal with.
Just to clarify: veganism is a philosophy that seeks to minimize the exploitation of animals. There need not be a “difficulty reconciling playing stringed instruments” with this philosophy. If there are reasonable alternatives to animal-based products available, a vegan will choose those. If there are not, they will not. Each vegan is allowed to set their definition of “reasonable” for themselves, and vegans typically do not harshly criticize other vegans for how they define that line.
In contrast, it appears common (to me) for non-vegans to harshly criticize vegans for “hypocrisy”. There may be a psychological reason for this urge, but I won’t try to diagnose.
In contrast, it appears common (to me) for non-vegans to harshly criticize vegans for “hypocrisy”. There may be a psychological reason for this urge, but I won’t try to diagnose.
Kids are different, their sensitivities are much more vivid and acute. We become hardened as we get older and are faced with decisions about what we're willing to compromise in order to survive.
I do use synthetic double bass strings. All of my banjos have synthetic heads of one sort or another. But with both instrument types this is more because of either a cost or a reliability issue than anything else.
But I'm also mindful of the ecology that is damaged during the refinery stages of the materials that are used in these and all other synthetic products. It's hard to know which is worse.
I do use synthetic double bass strings. All of my banjos have synthetic heads of one sort or another. But with both instrument types this is more because of either a cost or a reliability issue than anything else.
But I'm also mindful of the ecology that is damaged during the refinery stages of the materials that are used in these and all other synthetic products. It's hard to know which is worse.
This, x 14,037.
Vintage cars are also cool to look at. But for a daily commute? No thanks. If you want to drive a vintage car, you better be good at working on vintage cars. Want to just turn the key and get where you’re going? Play steel. Want to tune between every other song and learn to trim the hairs from your strings and maintain them fussily? Drive a vintage car.
Also consider that it might be easier to intonate on a steel string anyway.
I played gut string just one or two times. Real gut, no winding. I'm happy for that experience, as it immediately explained a lot about why is the bass pedagogy shaped as it is. I think that the act of showing that to students, as @Bruce Calin describes it, is a great idea. If they repel it now, they might find later that there is a whole world to examine.
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Which is why I started on gut myself. I wanted to hear and feel what those players felt. Really good point.
Want to tune between every other song and learn to trim the hairs from your strings and maintain them fussily?
Also consider that it might be easier to intonate on a steel string anyway.
Based on my experience, you're exaggerating, which may be a disservice to those looking for information.
1) Yes, I hesitate to use my gut-strung bass in orchestra rehearsals, because of tuning issues; but it's only in the first few minutes of environmental acclimation that I have a problem. I'm perfectly happy to use that bass in performance, when I can let the bass acclimate before the performance.
2) I've never had to trim hairs from gut strings.
3) Why do you think intonation is more difficult on gut strings? My intonation is equally poor on gut and steel!
I love gut strings and I was a vegan for 6 years, mainly for performance reasons. I dropped from 220 down to 163 and spent the entire 6 long years hungry and irritated.
Find me a vegan that does not like ice cream and we can talk about string choices....
Find me a vegan that does not like ice cream and we can talk about string choices....
My apologies! I don't mean to do a disservice to anyone. I should have probably just liked Jason's post and left it there.
My aversion to guts coms from watching students and other local players go through gut phases and thinking they always sound better after these phases pass. As far as the intonation issue, I'm not sure what causes it, but I suspect two factors are to blame. First, the pitch of the strings slip a lot, and that affects intonation. Perhaps in the case of my students having these phases, their bass has to acclimate to my office, and an hour isn't enough time for that? Second, and I could be wrong about this, but it seems to me that the pitch aspect of guts speaks more slowly - at least for pizz - than steels do. I suspect it has something to do with string construction and mid/high frequencies inherent in the typical jazz steel strings that makes those overtones pop out quicker, which in turn helps the player adjust more quickly and stay more sure footed than when they can't hear those frequencies quickly. But again, just my observations.
I concur. I did have to maintain my guts by gently sanding off hairs, checking tuning after each song and generally watching them carefully. I loved the feel and the sound. It is more than just intonation, that comment was meant to kind of lighten my post a little. It’s the way they blend with other steel string instruments. They could sometimes give me false information at my listening point causing me to doubt my intonation. There’s just more going on in a gut sound than steel, a lot more in my experience. Alone I thought they sounded absolutely gorgeous. But when I got the tour with Lunasa, an Irish band with the great bassist Trevor Hutchinson, I knew right away that my guts were not going to blend as well as Trevor’s long sustaining steel vibe. I took the guts off and went to rehearsal and I was not wrong. It’s been a minute since I’ve bowed some guts but I really enjoy the precision of steels. When they are I played in tune they just wrap around the ensemble.
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Great discussion. It's interesting the directions it's gone since my OP. One thing I'd like to emphasize is how much I enjoy interacting with my students. They are for the most part intelligent, good humored, and motivated as bass players. I hadn't really done any teaching until later in my playing life but am very glad I have had the opportunity. I encourage questions and discussion that have some relation to music and bass playing but can range pretty widely at times, like this one. The school age kids are growing up in such a different world than I did that it's great when we can find some common ground for discussion and relate it to bass playing, music, and life.
It isn’t, really. The environmental degradation from agricultural action isn’t anything like the poison leached into the water supply from secondary/tertiary petroleum processing and plastics production. Gut strings are FAR more environmentally friendly. Heck, you could compost unwound guts (which would be like composting a large stack of 20$ bills, but less efficient).
Yes, none of us would want to live near a pig farm, but it sure beats living near a Superfund site. Don’t believe me? Google “Love Canal”. My father was working in Niagara Falls when that was happening. Papers and magazines published pics at the time of the poor kids born with birth defects to parents that were exposed to industrial waste, which were properly shocking (even more died of childhood cancers). A century and a half of heavy industry and refinery in this country (and it’s demise) have left our country dotted with thousands of similar sites in precarious positions relative to ground water. Industrial scale farming is wholesome by comparison. The difference is, it’s FAR easier to opt out of eating meat than it is to opt out of using plastic, aluminum, etc.
