Double Bass GUTS ARE SO MUCH FUN!!!

[Bobby King]

I remember my teacher's teacher, who was in a good position to have worthy perspective saying," I love to play on guts at home, but for the (orchestra) gig, I use steel. If two people show up for an audition (for the orchestra), the one playing steel will always win the job."

So, here's the question. I loved the soft feel of the guts and I dig the jazz/pizz sound. Is there a division line between guts being desirable for pizz vs. arco work, in your collective minds/experience?

Eric -- Your teacher is probably correct. In modern-day orchestras, practically no one uses gut strings (if anything, maybe metal wrapped like Oliv). Orchestra sections are mindful of tonal blend, gut will stick out, and so that reinforces the custom.

Gut is certainly bowable, and in days gone by, gut was the only option. But I have to agree that steel strings both sound and respond best for arco work. Bowed gut can be nasal, scratchy, and midrange heavy sounding. They respond slower and require a different touch.

The ideal orchestral steel strings are usually not the best ones for jazz pizz either. A classic orchestra string, Pirastro Flexocore, is pretty dead sounding for jazz pizz, but smooth and beautiful when bowed. Spirocores are the classic jazz pizz stings with nice sustain and clear high-end, but many complain that they can be scratchy or whiney when bowed.

For double duty, arco and jazz pizz, the synthetic core strings like Obligato, Evah Pirazzi and Velvet Compass are a good choice.

IMO, the ideal for a bass player would be to have 3 basses -- one with Pirastro Flexocores, one with Thomastic Spirocores, and one with Gamut guts! And while I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.

 

[adarrell]

I use a Goetz or Dluggolecki g, oliv d, and spirocore weichs e and a on my bass. I had d and g Dluggolecki's for a while and bought the Goetz g just to try other strings. Turns out that the Goetz are really great and actually about $25 cheaper than the Dluggolecki's. IMO they are two of the best gut strings out there, big warm sound and nice feel under both hands.

 

[Eric Swanson]

Eric -- Your teacher is probably correct. In modern-day orchestras, practically no one uses gut strings (if anything, maybe metal wrapped like Oliv). Orchestra sections are mindful of tonal blend, gut will stick out, and so that reinforces the custom.

Gut is certainly bowable, and in days gone by, gut was the only option. But I have to agree that steel strings both sound and respond best for arco work. Bowed gut can be nasal, scratchy, and midrange heavy sounding. They respond slower and require a different touch.

The ideal orchestral steel strings are usually not the best ones for jazz pizz either. A classic orchestra string, Pirastro Flexocore, is pretty dead sounding for jazz pizz, but smooth and beautiful when bowed. Spirocores are the classic jazz pizz stings with nice sustain and clear high-end, but many complain that they can be scratchy or whiney when bowed.

For double duty, arco and jazz pizz, the synthetic core strings like Obligato, Evah Pirazzi and Velvet Compass are a good choice.

IMO, the ideal for a bass player would be to have 3 basses -- one with Pirastro Flexocores, one with Thomastic Spirocores, and one with Gamut guts! And while I'm dreaming, I'd like a pony.

Hi Bobby,

Thanks for the thoughtful take on it. I don't have a pony either; just one bass strung with Bel Cantos, which are working for me as a hybrid.

I was wondering if I had missed something or if something had changed. The comment I mentioned came from a guy who had played in a major orchestra for a long time on gut, then seen the switch to steel. That is from another time, obviously. I was wondering if perhaps either the strings or the opinions had evolved.

Best,
Eric

 

[Mark Perna]

Courage, Phil-just remember what guts are like on an outdoor gig on a nice muggy night.

Interestingly, I've never had a huge problem with guts in humidity that wasn't as much the bass as the strings. None of my basses respond well in high humidity. They get thumpy and stiff. In some ways, it was worse with Spiros because when the bass swelled up, not only did it get thumpy, the higher tension made it hard to play. Guts get a little sticky but that can be somewhat controlled by playing with the extreme ends of the fingertips of both hands. Being significantly lower tension, the bass doesn't get that much harder to play. Playing with the extreme ends of the fingertips sounds horrible on metal strings but sounds pretty good on gut which doesn't lose the "thup" to the beginning of the note when you use less finger on the string.

 

[Marc Piane]

Guts get a little sticky but that can be somewhat controlled by playing with the extreme ends of the fingertips of both hands.

I keep a rag soaked in almond oil in a zip lock bag in my case. I'll have it handy during the gig. Whenever the bass starts feeling sticky I'll wipe the strings down with that and all is good.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I keep a rag soaked in almond oil in a zip lock bag in my case.

Bet that smells yummy.

 

[Mark Perna]

I keep a rag soaked in almond oil in a zip lock bag in my case. I'll have it handy during the gig. Whenever the bass starts feeling sticky I'll wipe the strings down with that and all is good.

That's a good idea. I think I'm going to co-opt that one.

 

[drew_bassmore]

So I have had a full set of Gamuts on my Hungarian carved for the last couple of months or so, and logged a number of rehearsals and a few shows.

Pistoy G & D, Copper Wound A & E.

I love the sound and feel of the strings. With less tension, I felt like I could play forever on the strings.

On my '53 Kay C1 (with a brand new Ebony fingerboard), I have had:
Lyon G , Pistoy D, Anima A & E.
I decided to try that combo on a gig, and it was decent, but felt to be a little too high tension from the Animas, and it affected the sound of the G string slightly (seemed to choke it a bit).

I have been playing a lot of Hard Bop, Jazz Messengers era material, and the full gut set is a great compliment to that and Bill Evans or Ahmad Jamal style trio situations.

Here is the rub. My Hungarian just doesn't project that well. It has a more complex sound than the Kay, but it seems that the full gut set is not right for it. So, I am back to Olive G and Anima D,A & E. It fits for the modern, brazilian influenced jazz I am playing in an upcoming program. I am still using a DPA 4099 as my main source of amplification (along with QSC K10 monitor), which keeps the acoustic quality decent, although the instrument isn't that loud. However, I believe the Hungarian needs that slightly higher tension to sound its best (within its limitations), and the above string combination has a nice front end attack and sustain that is simply different than the full gut set. Not better or worse, just different.

Here is the upside. With the new fingerboard on the Kay, and the Copper Wound Gamuts on the bottom now, it sounds massive! Plus it has mellowed on the tension, and seems to be giving me the full benefit of the strings. Great for the blues based Hard Bop stuff. But I am also going to explore the piano trio concept (the next natural step in my studies) with this set up.

So I have choices now, and they both seem to be good ones- and, the Gamuts still shine!!!

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Nice choices! I think you have it covered with those two.

The title of this thread is funny to me now.... I can't imagine playing anything other than guts. But it wasn't that long ago that I was on the fence... and now it's time to order some new Gamuts.

 

[MR PC]

Time to pass the plate......

 

[Marcus Johnson]

Hehe...

 

[Ruuumble]

Sorry. Prolly not threadworthy. Oh well. Let's have a gut lovefest.

Just wanted to get this discussion right back to the point! Got a '59 Kay about six months ago w all pure gut strings - I just now put the bass down to write this! I hope my fingers recover from playing steel prior to that! Pure heaven - c'mon you gut slappers!!!! Only 750 posts?? The gutlove fest continues......

 

[drew_bassmore]

As I indicated in a previous post, I have the full Gamut gut set up on my '53 Kay C1, and it is a great match!

Today, however, I don't think anything was going to help me. I had to play a 5 hour outdoor gig in Berkeley, CA fog and overcast, with a nice little wind blowing. I feel for you midwest & northeast guys, nothing close to your extreme conditons, but still- my hands were frozen all day! Guts or no guts, this gig was not going to be that much fun.

The upside is that the strings stayed relatively well in tune. I would have an opportunity to check every other song or so.

The down side is that one of the Alto players who joined us late called 'Cherokee' as the last song of our 5 hours. Thankfully the drummer instead persuaded him to do 'Anthropology'. Not that either of them were doing me any favors.

I think the next time I have a gig like this, I will playing 1/2 note solos all day al a Fuqua's exercise. It is probably the only way to save my hands, lesser gut tension or not. Either that, or I might actually play something that sounded like music. Suffice it to say the solos weren't happening today.

Don't blame the strings, blame the player. The weather was a b*tch!!!

 

[KStewart]

Yes, gut strings are thee best, and the only string to give double bass the proper double bass tone.

 

[Uncletoad]

Yes, gut strings are thee best, and the only string to give double bass the proper double bass tone.

Which explains why the largest majority of people who play the instrument in 2011 use steel strings.

You suppose they all just want to sound "improper"? Maybe they are just to narrow minded to know better.

 

[Marc Piane]

Sweet. Now it feels like a real TBDB discussion. It only took 734 posts.

 

[KStewart]

Maybe they are just to narrow minded to know better.

My thoughts exactly. Or, gut strings are too expensive for the majority of players in 2011. (hate to be Captain Obvious, but I know many players who simply can't afford them vs. Steel. They'd rather be playing guts because of the tone. Or, the up-keep on guts scare them away)

Guts have worked for centuries before steel strings. But, you know that. You know all.

 

[engedi1]

I love how almost every time someone makes a really goofy, off base comment,(pun intended) if you just look at their join date, it will invariably be within a few months, and their total number of posts is under 100...

 

[KStewart]

I love how almost every time someone makes a really goofy, off base comment,(pun intended) if you just look at their join date, it will invariably be within a few months, and their total number of posts is under 100...

I like how I'm NO newbie (only on post counts on this board, yes)... and have expressed a simple comment (which IS what these forums are for), whether 'goofy' or 'off base', and now some Toad has croaked and now some rad Nashvillian are jumping on me for something this board was created for. You guys try to act like a ignorant gang on purpose? Or, is the dull-drum of your lives translating over to TalkBass?

 

[Francois Blais]

Ok.
Now everyone takes a big breath and relax, please.
Please keep in mind the thread's title.
If guts are no more fun, this thread will be closed.

TIA,
François