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Had to mix at 85dB tonight

KingRazor

KingRazor

Jun 4, 2010
6,747
415
37
Beaverton, Oregon USA
#1
That was quite a challenge, considering the drums were 89dB without mics. The crowd's clapping was 88dB all on its own.

The senior Pastor of my church told me to mix at 85dB tonight, and I knew it would be difficult. I tried, but peaks between 87 and 92 were fairly frequent. I'm just glad he didn't come over and ask me what level the meter said.

I hated how it sounded. :(
 
#9
Somebody in the congregation probably told the pastor (after reading the interweb) that studio engineers typically mix around 85dB...that is the beginning of a misinformation frenzy that starts with a dB meter and ends with electronic drums and IEMs.

In my many years of dealing with this I can assert without exaggeration that 99% of complaints about the the music being too loud are not actually complaints about volume, but about quality of mix and/or quality of performance.
 
#10
testing1two said:
Somebody in the congregation probably told the pastor (after reading the interweb) that studio engineers typically mix around 85dB...that is the beginning of a misinformation frenzy that starts with a dB meter and ends with electronic drums and IEMs.

In my many years of dealing with this I can assert without exaggeration that 99% of complaints about the the music being too loud are not actually complaints about volume, but about quality of mix and/or quality of performance.
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Touche!
 
#11
testing1two said:
Somebody in the congregation probably told the pastor (after reading the interweb) that studio engineers typically mix around 85dB...that is the beginning of a misinformation frenzy that starts with a dB meter and ends with electronic drums and IEMs.

In my many years of dealing with this I can assert without exaggeration that 99% of complaints about the the music being too loud are not actually complaints about volume, but about quality of mix and/or quality of performance.
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Yep, I believe you are correct.

Something is going to change. I understood that this morning. The other sound guy was mixing this morning and he got the mix volume very close to 85 dB...and it was so dead that people could have a conversation over the music. The Pastor immediately told him to turn it up.

Honestly, I think the dB meter is useless. I've mixed worship services where we peaked at 98dB and no one complained (in fact, the Pastor told me after ward that it sounded great!) and I've mixed at 92dB and was told it was too loud.

dB, loudness, and perceived volume are all different things. You can't just use them interchangeably.

The worship leader is going to talk to the senior pastor and something is going to be done about this. They're going to find a way to make the drums quiet enough that the stage noise will be at a tolerable level. We've already been looking at moving the whole band to IEMs (half of them have already) to eliminate amps on stage.

But I think the best thing would be to stop worrying about hitting a certain dB level and just come to a consensus on what sounds too loud and what doesn't.
 
#12
I would go further and say it's not about dB vs. loudness vs. perceived volume. It's about the listener knowing that something is wrong with the performance but not being able (or willing) to specifically, let alone technically, identify it. All they know is that something isn't right and they would be more comfortable if everything were quiet. So naturally they say that it's too loud when in fact it is not a volume issue but a performance and/or mix issue.
 
#13
One church I visited built a fully enclosed acoustic drum cage with installed mics/monitor. It kept the volume under control but was installed to the right of the stage at floor level so I don,t know how the drummer could see any of the other musicians. I posted a pic awhile ago. I,ll see if i can dig it up and post it again.
 
#14
testing1two said:
Somebody in the congregation probably told the pastor (after reading the interweb) that studio engineers typically mix around 85dB...that is the beginning of a misinformation frenzy that starts with a dB meter and ends with electronic drums and IEMs.

In my many years of dealing with this I can assert without exaggeration that 99% of complaints about the the music being too loud are not actually complaints about volume, but about quality of mix and/or quality of performance.
Click to expand...

I think 99% is being generous.
 
#15
testing1two said:
I would go further and say it's not about dB vs. loudness vs. perceived volume. It's about the listener knowing that something is wrong with the performance but not being able (or willing) to specifically, let alone technically, identify it. All they know is that something isn't right and they would be more comfortable if everything were quiet. So naturally they say that it's too loud when in fact it is not a volume issue but a performance and/or mix issue.
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For sure.

I really appreciate it when the Pastor has come back and told me "I can't hear one of the singers very well." or "Can you bring the kick drum down some?" Because those are quick, easy fixes that help improve the sound without losing any quality of sound. When he just comes and tells me to turn it down, the mix doesn't really improve at all, at least not until I get re-situated and get a good mix together at the lower volume (not always easy).

Assuming we can find a way to significantly reduce the acoustic volume of the drums, I think IEMs will be good for us. That way the sound techs can make the music loud or quiet whenever we need to and the musicians can continue to play the same.

There is a lot that is expected out of a church sound man. Unlike in a lot of other situations, it's not just up to you to reproduce the sound of the band, it's up to you to make them sound good regardless of how they sound on stage. It's up to you to make them quiet even when you can't control the volume. It's up to you to make the vocals heard even if the singer is singing so quietly that you'd reach feedback levels if you brought the gain on the mic up to the optimum level for their voice.

A church needs to realize that they can't have it both ways. If the sound man is responsible for controlling the volume of the band, they need to be able to. If the band is going to control their own volume with amps and acoustic drums and such, then the sound man can't be expected to do it.

I think this weekend was good for our worship team, actually. Because I believe now that something will have to change. Things that we've wanted to have changed for a long time but didn't because it wasn't enough of a problem.
 
#16
KingRazor said:
Assuming we can find a way to significantly reduce the acoustic volume of the drums, I think IEMs will be good for us. That way the sound techs can make the music loud or quiet whenever we need to and the musicians can continue to play the same.
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IANAD, but we had a similar problem with drums being too loud in rehearsals and some venues. Our drummer got these new sticks which are bundles of black fibers bound with stout rubber bands, and it made a tremendous positive difference. He says they feel virtually the same as solid sticks, but they are much quieter. Additionally, when he hits a cymbal, it's mostly high frequencies instead of the broad midrange wash he was getting from sticks.

It worked for us. If you get the drum volume down you might not need the IEM's.
 
#17
ggunn said:
IANAD, but we had a similar problem with drums being too loud in rehearsals and some venues. Our drummer got these new sticks which are bundles of black fibers bound with stout rubber bands, and it made a tremendous positive difference. He says they feel virtually the same as solid sticks, but they are much quieter. Additionally, when he hits a cymbal, it's mostly high frequencies instead of the broad midrange wash he was getting from sticks.

It worked for us. If you get the drum volume down you might not need the IEM's.
Click to expand...

We've tried hot rods before, but they weren't well received.

Even if the drums quiet down, we'll still want IEMs to get rid of the guitar amps on stage.
 
#18
I used to be anti-IEM. Properly done, they not only sound great but it also helps musical performance. I think if you go that route the key is to do it correctly and spend the proper amount of money. The last thing you want is for your stage musicians to be frustrated or uninspired when they play. I don't particularly care for IEM's at secular gigs, but in a worship setting I love it.
 
#19
You guys need to check out Mosaic or Reality churches in Los Angeles, & Mars Hill in OC--so freakin' loud! Like a rock concert. I love it. It's mixed well & they play well. Not that I'd notice but I don't see anyone complaining to, or micro-managing the sound man.
 
#20
chuck norriss said:
You guys need to check out Mosaic or Reality churches in Los Angeles, & Mars Hill in OC--so freakin' loud! Like a rock concert. I love it. It's mixed well & they play well. Not that I'd notice but I don't see anyone complaining to, or micro-managing the sound man.
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I've been up to Experience church in Puyallap, WA and they're pretty darn loud during their dynamic service. No one complained. It was even a little too loud for me!

But that's not what the senior pastor at my church wants. Out of all of the pastoral staff and everyone else involved in the worship team, he's the only one that wants it quiet. But, it's his church. He makes the rules. If he wants it quiet, that's what he gets. I have no problem with that, really. If that's how he wants me to mix, I'll do it gladly. I wouldn't be serving in his church if I didn't feel that way.
 

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