Hand made - non CNC basses

[Lowtonejoe]

First of all, this is just a joke so please don't take it the wrong way........shame I have to ruin the fun in the post affraid it will be taken wrong....

Anyway, this is totally hand made with no CNC

http://cgi.ebay.com/Custom-Homemade-Unique-Bass-Project-No-Reserve_W0QQitemZ7370261499QQcategoryZ4713QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I guess I atleast gave him some free advertizing....

NASTY!!



Joe.

 

[jnprather]

I think people that despise CNC only despise it because they hate their music. Which I can understand. Not only was "Everybody Dance Now" a lame piece of crap, but they used some hot chick to lip-synch Martha Wash's part in the video and in concert, and Martha Wash was the only good thing about it. Right, like that voice could come out of some skinny 20-year-old.

CNC Music Factory: The Remixes is a kick ass album though.

 

[slugworth]

NASTY!!



Joe.

>>> People on ludes should not build guitars...
Jeff Spicoli.

Slug

 

[Marlat]

I'd love to do some blind testing of CNC vs Handmade instruments in terms of feel and sound etc. I'm sure there would be a lot of red faces after that one.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

I'd love to do some blind testing of CNC vs Handmade instruments in terms of feel and sound etc. I'm sure there would be a lot of read faces after that one.

The biggest issue I have is PRICE!

CNC basses should cost LESS.

They cost LESS to PRODUCE.

Why are they so expensive??



Joe.

 

[James Hart]

CNC Music Factory: The Remixes is a kick ass album though.

HA! I just picked up C+C's "Gonna Make You Sweat" this weekend.

 

[Marlat]

The biggest issue I have is PRICE!

CNC basses should cost LESS.

They cost LESS to PRODUCE.

Why are they so expensive??



Joe.

Mr Supply, I see you've already met Mr Demand.

I don't know whether you geuinely don't understand this, or are just ignoring it for the sake of your arguement, but construction method has very little to do with the price of a bass across manufactures. Its all about supply and demand. If people are willing to pay $1000 for a CNC made Korean Lakland, why should it cost less than a hand made Wishnevsky just because it was made, in part, on a CNC?

 

[Brian Barrett]

The biggest issue I have is PRICE!

CNC basses should cost LESS.

They cost LESS to PRODUCE.

Why are they so expensive??



Joe.

I'm sorry, I keep seeing this claim and it just isn't true at all.

If you are talking about brand X that has produced US basses and also Korean basses and Brand X does mass produce the Korean and not the US (There is no company that does this, those that out-source like this, their US basses are still CNC's in Mass's just in the US). I can see that you are just talking about Mass production cost being low and therefore is doesn’t matter if its US or Foreign other then labor, but shipping cost more if foreign.

But some have stated that even small builders who have CNC's for design and consistency....... using a CNC this way adds cost honestly. Number one the Machine isn’t cheap long or short term, number two the programs to be written for the designs and number three the maintenance. A Machine is a Machine as well and all builders use Machines. A CNC happens to have the ability that a bunch of individual machines have that most all builders have and it can’t run itself. What little time is saves on the rough shapping of a neck or body is doubled in other area's of design. What happens with the little time saved, and it is little when its being used in a small builders situation allows them to do more design and detailed work from inlays to shapping, routing, etc.

Sorry, I didn’t want to post in here..................................... Everyone has their opinions. If you don’t want a bass that is made by a machine then you will have to build your own. If the word or letters CNC bother you and you don’t want to buy a bass made by anything with those letter’s then you might just miss out or pay to much for something that you think is better that’s not..... but its all opinions and everyone has to make their own choices. There is no real “hand made” bass, they are all built with tools.

 

[slugworth]

Mr Supply, I see you've already met Mr Demand.

I don't know whether you geuinely don't understand this, or are just ignoring it for the sake of your arguement, but construction method has very little to do with the price of a bass across manufactures. Its all about supply and demand. If people are willing to pay $1000 for a CNC made Korean Lakland, why should it cost less than a hand made Wishnevsky just because it was made, in part, on a CNC?

>>> Luxury goods don't necessarily follow traditional supply and demand models, like pork bellies and bushels of corn. Luxury goods exhibit different microeconomic price theory
characteristics such as demand elasticity, and an odd looking
supply curves; luxury goods price theory is highly driven by psychology and consumer perception. Exclusivity being one main factor.. In a perfectly competitive supply and demand model things will only be appealing relative to their next best alternative. Luxury goods rarely follow this caveat.

Slug
B.A. Economics
CSUF - '88

 

[Lowtonejoe]

..snip... but construction method has very little to do with the price of a bass across manufactures.

No kidding??

That is patently obvious.

Its all about supply and demand. If people are willing to pay $1000 for a CNC made Korean Lakland, why should it cost less than a hand made Wishnevsky just because it was made, in part, on a CNC?

The Supply/Demand part I already addressed.

What I am saying is simple:

ANYTHING that has less labor into it costs less to make.

Why do you think so many labor intensive jobs are sent to other countries??

A cnc machine is a labor saving device.

Pass the savings on.

Simple.



Joe.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

I'm sorry, I keep seeing this claim and it just isn't true at all.

If you are talking about brand X that has produced US basses and also Korean basses and Brand X does mass produce the Korean and not the US (There is no company that does this, those that out-source like this, their US basses are still CNC's in Mass's just in the US). I can see that you are just talking about Mass production cost being low and therefore is doesn’t matter if its US or Foreign other then labor, but shipping cost more if foreign.

But some have stated that even small builders who have CNC's for design and consistency....... using a CNC this way adds cost honestly. Number one the Machine isn’t cheap long or short term, number two the programs to be written for the designs and number three the maintenance. A Machine is a Machine as well and all builders use Machines. A CNC happens to have the ability that a bunch of individual machines have that most all builders have and it can’t run itself. What little time is saves on the rough shapping of a neck or body is doubled in other area's of design. What happens with the little time saved, and it is little when its being used in a small builders situation allows them to do more design and detailed work from inlays to shapping, routing, etc.

Sorry, I didn’t want to post in here..................................... Everyone has their opinions. If you don’t want a bass that is made by a machine then you will have to build your own. If the word or letters CNC bother you and you don’t want to buy a bass made by anything with those letter’s then you might just miss out or pay to much for something that you think is better that’s not..... but its all opinions and everyone has to make their own choices. There is no real “hand made” bass, they are all built with tools.

Ultimately,

1. If cnc machines did not save money they would not be in use.

2. Tools are always used, the depth of their use differentiates hand made from machine replicated.



Joe.

 

[Marlat]

Ultimately,

1. If cnc machines did not save money they would not be in use.

2. Tools are always used, the depth of their use differentiates hand made from machine replicated.



Joe.

Have you considered that while a CNC machine may increase the cost per unit, it allows more units to be made per year and thus increase profits while increasing the unit price?

 

[paintandsk8]

Well I think this thread wins the most mis-informed, mis-understood, arguing with our fingers in our ears award for the day.

A few thoughts:

1. CNC basses can be, and are quite amazing on a regular basis, I LOVE my lakland skyline.

2. a blind test of CNC vs.true handmade (however you define that) would probably show that most people can't tell a difference. BUT people that are spending $3000+ on basses are doing so based or more than the fact that they are good instruments. They are paying for art, craftsmanship, knowledge, uniqueness, and everything else that comes with an experienced luthier. And I for one think that the more CNC is involved, the less these factors come into play. (please don't read that as saying that "if anything besides bare human hands touches my bass it might as well have come off an assembly line", like so many of you are trying to do)

3. In our society there is a certain amount of respect given to handmade things. Whether it be because of mojo, or price, or whatever. Whether it be instruments, furniture, food, clothing, etc. It is what it is.

4. This isn't a black and white issue. There as many different levels of luthier involvement in bass building as there are shades of grey. Do you consider someone like Chris benavente who uses a auto-router to cut out tops and bodies to be a CNC'ed bassk or a handmade bass? Do you consider someone with a little more CNC involvement like sadowsky, to be a CNC'ed bass or a handmade bass?

 

[PilbaraBass]

Have you considered that while a CNC machine may increase the cost per unit, it allows more units to be made per year and thus increase profits while increasing the unit price?

Steve Wishnevsky uses CNC methods in his shop...that's "CNC", "Country-fied North Carolina"

I'm just completing a refin on my wishbass (after wanting one for 16 months...YES, FINALLY!) and when I removed the strap holder on the upper horn it revealed two finish nails side-by-side right next to the screw hole... ....WEEEEE DOGGGIES! my bass gots nails!!!! YEEE HAWWWW!!! CNC AT ITS BEST!

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Have you considered that while a CNC machine may increase the cost per unit, it allows more units to be made per year and thus increase profits while increasing the unit price?

Yes, hence starting my last post with 'Ultimately'.



Joe.

 

[BurningSkies]

1. If cnc machines did not save money they would not be in use.


Joe.

Are you saying that luthiers only use CNC because it saves money?

This is not a story I've ever heard from anyone in the guitar/bass building field.

Isn't it possible, just maybe.............


.....That builders are choosing to use CNC machines because they do what they're touted for? Namely cutting, carving and shaping with a precision that exceeds 'hand made' parts?


For instance, I did a project and had USACG do the body and neck. The neck was done to my spec and they gave me free reign to designate the neck depth and taper to hundredths.

I know plenty of luthiers who tell you they do something in a more costly or time consuming manner because of the end product. Isn't it just maybe possible that this is one of those cases?

Where's the designation threashold for handmade/machine-made anyway? I'd like a quantification of it please.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Well I think this thread wins the most mis-informed, mis-understood, arguing with our fingers in our ears award for the day.

A few thoughts:

1. CNC basses can be, and are quite amazing on a regular basis, I LOVE my lakland skyline.

2. a blind test of CNC vs.true handmade (however you define that) would probably show that most people can't tell a difference. BUT people that are spending $3000+ on basses are doing so based or more than the fact that they are good instruments. They are paying for art, craftsmanship, knowledge, uniqueness, and everything else that comes with an experienced luthier. And I for one think that the more CNC is involved, the less these factors come into play. (please don't read that as saying that "if anything besides bare human hands touches my bass it might as well have come off an assembly line", like so many of you are trying to do)

3. In our society there is a certain amount of respect given to handmade things. Whether it be because of mojo, or price, or whatever. Whether it be instruments, furniture, food, clothing, etc. It is what it is.

4. This isn't a black and white issue. There as many different levels of luthier involvement in bass building as there are shades of grey. Do you consider someone like Chris benavente who uses a auto-router to cut out tops and bodies to be a CNC'ed bassk or a handmade bass? Do you consider someone with a little more CNC involvement like sadowsky, to be a CNC'ed bass or a handmade bass?

+1

I have to agree, including the questions raised.



Joe.

 

[slugworth]

No kidding??

That is patently obvious.





The Supply/Demand part I already addressed.

What I am saying is simple:

ANYTHING that has less labor into it costs less to make.

Why do you think so many labor intensive jobs are sent to other countries??

A cnc machine is a labor saving device.

Pass the savings on.

Simple.



Joe.

>>> Pass the savings on? A noble thought. Ain't gonna happen. This is America, baby..Remember the "Pet Rock"?
I had a yard full of rocks, I had to pay someone to get rid of them!!! Beware of naked emperors...

Slug

 

[Ian Perge]

A cnc machine is a labor saving device.

I'd actually argue this point. After all the discussion on CNC/"Handmade" construction we've had over the years here, I'd call a CNC machine a "labor redirection device" - it allows people with skills in a few particular areas (coders, operators, etc) to work in their field, and others (carvers, electronic techs, setup techs, etc) to work in theirs.

And as Ostinato, who is a CNC operator and clearly stated that "they are not much faster than doing it any other way, but they are accurate to .0001 inches" as well as the facts that Brian from LEB stated previously that CNC machines are highly expensive to purchase/lease time on, train a skilled operator on, and have upkeep costs like any other piece of machinery...

What if we were to find out that it costs high-end builders that use CNC more than not using them? Would there be any retractions/apologies from so people in this thread making assumptions?

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Are you saying that luthiers only use CNC because it saves money?

Ultimately, yes.

This is not a story I've ever heard from anyone in the guitar/bass building field.

Isn't it possible, just maybe.............


.....That builders are choosing to use CNC machines because they do what they're touted for? Namely cutting, carving and shaping with a precision that exceeds 'hand made' parts?

Exceeds? By the normal worker? Yes, definitely. By a talented luthier? No.

For instance, I did a project and had USACG do the body and neck. The neck was done to my spec and they gave me free reign to designate the neck depth and taper to hundredths.

I know plenty of luthiers who tell you they do something in a more costly or time consuming manner because of the end product. Isn't it just maybe possible that this is one of those cases?

Please re-explain this.

Where's the designation threashold for handmade/machine-made anyway? I'd like a quantification of it please.

Quantified?? Sure.

It is this...

Who directly controls, in real time, the tool doing the work? A machine (computer) or a man?

Running a program relinquishes control.

Very simple.

See?



Joe.