Hand made - non CNC basses

[slugworth]

Have you considered that while a CNC machine may increase the cost per unit, it allows more units to be made per year and thus increase profits while increasing the unit price?

>>> You've got that kinda inside-out...While there would be a significant initial capital expenditure, over time, (owing to increased production capacity and depreciation which could be expensed) a manufacturer should be able in increase production and profits while lowering the price. This is called "Economies of Scale", it's also how economies grow and create jobs.

Slug

 

[paintandsk8]

Quantified?? Sure.

It is this...

Who directly controls, in real time, the tool doing the work? A machine (computer) or a man?

Running a program relinquishes control.

Very simple.

See?



Joe.

But does that make Benavente not hand made becuase he uses an auto router to cut out bodly blanks and tops etc...?

 

[Lowtonejoe]

I'd actually argue this point. After all the discussion on CNC/"Handmade" construction we've had over the years here, I'd call a CNC machine a "labor redirection device" - it allows people with skills in a few particular areas (coders, operators, etc) to work in their field, and others (carvers, electronic techs, setup techs, etc) to work in theirs.

And as Ostinato, who is a CNC operator and clearly stated that "they are not much faster than doing it any other way, but they are accurate to .0001 inches" as well as the facts that Brian from LEB stated previously that CNC machines are highly expensive to purchase/lease time on, train a skilled operator on, and have upkeep costs like any other piece of machinery...

What if we were to find out that it costs high-end builders that use CNC more than not using them? Would there be any retractions/apologies from so people in this thread making assumptions?

Even if I am wrong in calling it labor saving device, with calling it a labor redirection device money is still saved by not having to hire skilled labor, insure them, pay holiday pay, blah blah blah.

Ultimately cnc machines save money or they wouldn't be in use.

Right?

I am willing to listen if you say 'wrong' but it would also have to be proved without a doubt.

Apologise? For what??

Publicly change my opinion? Darn right. A man can admit when he's wrong.

A man I am.



Joe.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

But does that make Benavente not hand made becuase he uses an auto router to cut out bodly blanks and tops etc...?

It would certainly imply that it was not 100% hand made.

Maybe we need to come up with a new word. I don't know.



Joe.

 

[BurningSkies]

Please re-explain this.

For instance, I did a project and had USACG do the body and neck. The neck was done to my spec and they gave me free reign to designate the neck depth and taper to hundredths.

I know plenty of luthiers who tell you they do something in a more costly or time consuming manner because of the end product. Isn't it just maybe possible that this is one of those cases?

Sure. No Problem. Two ideas. The first, during my project, which was to build a 1964 Telecaster to spec, Tommy at USACG suggested to me that I should go and measure a series of real Fenders from the window of years that the specs remained fairly similar. I presented a list of about 100 neck measurements. We threw away any odd outliers and then we came up with a good 'average' measurement. He asked for it out to hundreths of an inch, even though, as stated, a CNC machine can be solid out past that. He then programed the parameters for a one off on the CNC to match neck profile, taper, and measurements (with a specified amount of float for finishing sanding to be done by hand). CNC added the precision to nail all of the aspects, mentioned above without it being a 'crap-shoot' which was important to me as I'd also paid for Brazilian rosewood, clay dots, etc.


Ok, second idea. Sometimes people use equipment and processes that are not necessarily cost or time efficient in the pursuit of their goal. CNC does cost much in upkeep, training, programing, etc. As an instrument maker has pointed out above, it' doesn't necessarily save time, especially if you're a small shop with one machine and limited manpower.

It is this...

Who directly controls, in real time, the tool doing the work? A machine (computer) or a man?

Running a program relinquishes control.

Very simple.

See?

Now, you see, I don't agree. It's not that simple. By detailed programming, computer aided design work and computer operated CNC, the luthier is GAINING control. He's got more precision in his 'building blocks' with closer tolerances. Yet, he STILL has the opportunity to take a CNC'd body and 'edit' the work through doing more woodworking. No loss of control at all.


If you prefer to think of your luthier as a guy sitting by candle-light carving out that bass by hand in his ol' workshop with his spectacles perched on his nose in the finest of 'old world craftsmanship' then feel free. But its a fairytale. Even Ritter uses computers to assist his bass design specs.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Or maybe something like..."Hand made with minimal computer controlled tooling." at a given percentage.

But then that would require the birth of a new sanctioning body to make sure the limits were being adhered to.

 

[vacman]

I just hope that when I order my Geddy that the CNC machine is in a fine mood that day.....All this talk might have it alittle on edge.

 

[BurningSkies]

I just hope that when I order my Geddy that the CNC machine is in a fine mood that day.....All this talk might have it alittle on edge.

I hope it didn't show up that day a bit hung over and under/over carve the neck joint. or maybe not get the pickup rout quite right. Or maybe rush the job to get to lunch a few minutes early...

 

[vacman]

I hope it didn't show up that day a bit hung over and under/over carve the neck joint. or maybe not get the pickup rout quite right. Or maybe rush the job to get to lunch a few minutes early...

Point well taken dear sir.

 

[Ian Perge]

Even if I am wrong in calling it labor saving device, with calling it a labor redirection device money is still saved by not having to hire skilled labor, insure them, pay holiday pay, blah blah blah.

But a CNC operator is still "skilled labor", simply in a difference field than someone using a bandsaw or holding a chisel. They're still paid, insured, etc... CNC machines do not run themselves.

Ultimately cnc machines save money or they wouldn't be in use.

Right?

Possible - I'm not in the business, and can't speak in that area. We know they make for at least as accurate work more consistantly, and that there's significant cost in their usage. They might reduce costs in the long run, they might increase cost per unit as Mark stated. Unless a builder would like to comment in this thread, none of us can say anything for sure.

I am willing to listen if you say 'wrong' but it would also have to be proved without a doubt.

Again, I don't believe that it's a black/white situation that can be proven without a doubt. Does CNC lower costs for megacompanies like FenIbanson? I'd imagine so. Does it do the same for the much smaller builders mentioned in this thread? I imagine not, but cannot say for sure in either case.

Ultimately, we're discussing the economics of a small subset (high-end builders) of a fairly small industry (electric bass production) in the grand scheme of things. None of us "knows", myself very much included, the intricacies of the field.

Apologise? For what??

That was much more a general statement and not a personal one. Apologies if taken as such.

Publicly change my opinion? Darn right.

Too many people can't.

 

[Marlat]

Or maybe something like..."Hand made with minimal computer controlled tooling." at a given percentage.

But then that would require the birth of a new sanctioning body to make sure the limits were being adhered to.

Can you please define the point at which somethign ceases to be hand made?

What about a laser guided circular or jig saw? Third party electronics? Third party hardware?

How is installing third party hardware that you didnt hand make yourself any different from installing a third party rough cut body that you shaped and sanded yourself?

What about buying timber blanks that have been presawn by a third party? Does that stop something from being handmade because the lutheir didnt cut the tree down himself?

Please, I would like a clear definition of what is handmade and what is not? ALso, what is a "handmade price" and what is not?

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Sure. No Problem. Two ideas. The first, during my project, which was to build a 1964 Telecaster to spec, Tommy at USACG suggested to me that I should go and measure a series of real Fenders from the window of years that the specs remained fairly similar. I presented a list of about 100 neck measurements. We threw away any odd outliers and then we came up with a good 'average' measurement. He asked for it out to hundreths of an inch, even though, as stated, a CNC machine can be solid out past that. He then programed the parameters for a one off on the CNC to match neck profile, taper, and measurements (with a specified amount of float for finishing sanding to be done by hand). CNC added the precision to nail all of the aspects, mentioned above without it being a 'crap-shoot' which was important to me as I'd also paid for Brazilian rosewood, clay dots, etc.


Ok, second idea. Sometimes people use equipment and processes that are not necessarily cost or time efficient in the pursuit of their goal. CNC does cost much in upkeep, training, programing, etc. As an instrument maker has pointed out above, it' doesn't necessarily save time, especially if you're a small shop with one machine and limited manpower.



Now, you see, I don't agree. It's not that simple. By detailed programming, computer aided design work and computer operated CNC, the luthier is GAINING control. He's got more precision in his 'building blocks' with closer tolerances. Yet, he STILL has the opportunity to take a CNC'd body and 'edit' the work through doing more woodworking. No loss of control at all.


If you prefer to think of your luthier as a guy sitting by candle-light carving out that bass by hand in his ol' workshop with his spectacles perched on his nose in the finest of 'old world craftsmanship' then feel free. But its a fairytale. Even Ritter uses computers to assist his bass design specs.

I certainly appreciate your explanation and even see your point.

I think that the difference is that once you have a machine programmed it can replicate your design perfectly over many, many times. Whereas a luthier, being human, would actually have to have skill to do it consistently.

Heck, once you have the program it can be replicated thousands of times over thousands of machines, diminishing the designs value.

Meanwhile my luthier, working by candle light plugs away at bass #2.

It certainly is a knotty problem.

If I had money pouring out my ears I am sure I would own at least one of every bass in the world including cnc basses . But I don't. But I have to value something so I choose to value human craftsmanship.

Lemme tell you, I get more from the thought of some guy working away by candlelight than watching a machine whirring and sawdust flying.

Yes, I own and see value in cnc basses but personally I place higher value on hand made.



Joe.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Can you please define the point at which somethign ceases to be hand made?

What about a laser guided circular or jig saw? Third party electronics? Third party hardware?

How is installing third party hardware that you didnt hand make yourself any different from installing a third party rough cut body that you shaped and sanded yourself?

What about buying timber blanks that have been presawn by a third party? Does that stop something from being handmade because the lutheir didnt cut the tree down himself?

Please, I would like a clear definition of what is handmade and what is not? ALso, what is a "handmade price" and what is not?

Now you're just being silly.

On purpose I hope.



Joe.

 

[BurningSkies]

I certainly appreciate your explanation and even see your point.

I think that the difference is that once you have a machine programmed it can replicate your design perfectly over many, many times. Whereas a luthier, being human, would actually have to have skill to do it consistently.

Heck, once you have the program it can be replicated thousands of times over thousands of machines, diminishing the designs value.

Meanwhile my luthier, working by candle light plugs away at bass #2.

It certainly is a knotty problem.

If I had money pouring out my ears I am sure I would own at least one of every bass in the world including cnc basses . But I don't. But I have to value something so I choose to value human craftsmanship.

Lemme tell you, I get more from the thought of some guy working away by candlelight than watching a machine whirring and sawdust flying.

Yes, I own and see value in cnc basses but personally I place higher value on hand made.



Joe.

I find value in both.

I don't think that guys like Benavente or Sadowsky or Dingwall are diluting their designs by using CNC. They're not pumping the basses out. As I stated previously, my next bass will have CNC work, including body and neck work. It will still take probably 8 months to get done, And the luthier had been very open about the number of basses he makes in a year and the number of workers in his shop.

There's definitely a certain charm to instruments that are completely hand crafted...look at the old 50's and 60's fenders. V neck, C neck, flat neck, thin, fat etc. It's cool that any of a number of instruments might be different depending on how the guy shaping the neck was feeling or acting on a certain day...or that the woman at the pickup winding machine might have been daydreaming for a few extra moments and overwind those pickups that magic extra bit.

But, you also get the bad side of things... poor fit, uncomfortable instruments, ruined parts, etc. they all go with 'hand crafting'. And even a 'true artist' can have bad days or run into problems.

I think CNC is the best of both worlds. It takes some of the repetitive tasking away (if you've worked a job like that, you know how easy it is to 'wander' mentally) which gives people in a small shop the chance to spend time working on the details that we expect in a bass that's in the +2000 range.

 

[Marlat]

Now you're just being silly.

On purpose I hope.



Joe.

No I'm serious, please explain, in your definition, when something ceases to be "handmade" and why you draw the line there.

Bear in mind I own two basses that probably fit well within your definition of "hand made" because neither even came close to a CNC machine and one of them actually has hand made electronics (but not hardware).

 

[Ian Perge]

It takes some of the repetitive tasking away (if you've worked a job like that, you know how easy it is to 'wander' mentally)

Hell, that describes my playing.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

No I'm serious, please explain, in your definition, when something ceases to be "handmade" and why you draw the line there.

Bear in mind I own two basses that probably fit well within your definition of "hand made" because neither even came close to a CNC machine and one of them actually has hand made electronics (but not hardware).

Oh,

I guess you missed it.

Look a few posts up in one of my responses.



Joe.

 

[Marlat]

Oh,

I guess you missed it.

Look a few posts up in one of my responses.



Joe.

Sorry, I can't see it, do you want to quote what you are referring to.

The point is, you are drawing an arbitrary line and saying "hand made is more valuable than x", but you haven't clearly defined what makes something hand made and at what point does something stop being hand made and starts being "machine made" or whatever alternative you are postulating. Once we understand what you mean when you say "hand made" we can debate the issues.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Quantified?? Sure.

It is this...

Who directly controls, in real time, the tool doing the work? A machine (computer) or a man?

Running a program relinquishes control.

Very simple.

See?



Joe.

Here you go Mark.



Joe.

 

[LajoieT]

Well, readiing through this thread I have all sorts of stuff to add to the fray, but, in the end, I've talked to enough walls today so my coments will remain untyped for futility's sake.

I will make this observation tho. I have heard the mantra "Hand Made Basses for Hand Made Money" chanted in several other threads quite a while ago. IIRC that user is no longer welcome in these parts for some irrational and disparaging remarks he made about some of the luthiers. I'd hate to see more members follow in his footsteps.