Hand made - non CNC basses

[ras1983]

This thread was a real hoot!!!

All i can say is this:

In most other industries, the more specialised a product is then the more machines are involved in making it, and the more PRECISE these machines are.

The word precise is used too much in the english language these days, because it really is referring to a form of near perfection. i would have thought that the higher an instrument's price is, the more precise the CNC machines. Hey, if i paid $5000 for a bass, i would rather the luthier use as many PRECISE machines as he/she can to ensure i get a SPECIALIST instrument. Then he/she can add all the flavourings like custom tops, inlays etc etc by hand to make the bass unique.

The only reason i see a luthier refuse to use a CNC machine are for:

1. Tradition, i.e. hand made like the old days
2. Not enough volume.

If the luthier wants to expand his/her business, then why NOT use a CNC machine?

Like i said, in other industries specialist products use more machines that are much more precise.

BTW, Belman are a Aussie Handmade brand, and they have some great basses too.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

This thread was a real hoot!!!

All i can say is this:

In most other industries, the more specialised a product is then the more machines are involved in making it, and the more PRECISE these machines are.

The word precise is used too much in the english language these days, because it really is referring to a form of near perfection. i would have thought that the higher an instrument's price is, the more precise the CNC machines. Hey, if i paid $5000 for a bass, i would rather the luthier use as many PRECISE machines as he/she can to ensure i get a SPECIALIST instrument. Then he/she can add all the flavourings like custom tops, inlays etc etc by hand to make the bass unique.

The only reason i see a luthier refuse to use a CNC machine are for:

1. Tradition, i.e. hand made like the old days
2. Not enough volume.

If the luthier wants to expand his/her business, then why NOT use a CNC machine?

Like i said, in other industries specialist products use more machines that are much more precise.

BTW, Belman are a Aussie Handmade brand, and they have some great basses too.

I don't think that anyone has said that cnc machines shouldn't be used.

I believe we are determining the definition of the term 'hand made'.

And, I suppose, why a bass made with said machine would cost more that a 100% handmade (per whatever definition that is agreed on) bass.



Joe.

 

[Marlat]

Here you go Mark.



Joe.

Okay, so that doesnt address the issue of third party hardware and electronics. I'd like to know where you stand on those.

But, it also raises another question..personally I would rather have a CNC machine rough cut a body with the precision that the luthier intends than one of 30 or so random workers a in shop who may or may not give a flying fandango about the guitar they are building. Even though the latter may be more expensive, it doesn't guarantee quality let alone consistency.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Okay, so that doesnt address the issue of third party hardware and electronics. I'd like to know where you stand on those.

I had Bud LeCompte put Barts in the custom bass he made for me.

Right or wrong, in my mind hardware is a totally seperate issue.

But, it also raises another question..personally I would rather have a CNC machine rough cut a body with the precision that the luthier intends than one of 30 or so random workers a in shop who may or may not give a flying fandango about the guitar they are building.

I will gladly agree with this statement.

Even though the latter may be more expensive, it doesn't guarantee quality let alone consistency.

My only gripe is why a Boutique cnc made bass costs so much more than 'hand made' basses. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Heck, aren't Brice and SX basses cnc??

Why do the boutique cnc basses cost more??



Joe.

 

[Brian Barrett]

The skilled labor verse skilled wood worker, insurance and salary, etc. keeps coming up. What if this Builder is the Skilled machine worker as well as the wood worker, as well as the employee and if he wants insurance, he has to pay for it, for him and his family and children...... now what if this builder doesn't have insurance and still does all this? Doesn't sound like he is spitting them out and making all this money you talk of does it? I can name a number of these builders! They own the machines they own because of the precision they offer and the detailed work they can produce. And it cost them more..... so I guess they need to raise prices, its cheaper to not pay for the machine which is why many don’t have them. Its not cheaper to own a CNC.

So to think that a CNC allows a builder to sit back and watch TV while some kid off the street runs a machine for a few bucks and hour while he is served lunch is just way out there.

I can see however that with out being in the industry or knowing how things actually work and what they cost can be misleading. Heck the fact of where the money goes when you pay for a 3K bass and who is getting rich is also misunderstood. Everything cost money from house's to kids, to office's/shops, machines, Insurance, Employees (if you have any), Wood, Hardware, Truss rods, and the list goes on as well as this list cost more every year.


Speaker Cabinets are almost all CNC'd......... so is a hand made one better?

 

[ras1983]

I don't think that anyone has said that cnc machines shouldn't be used.

I believe we are determining the definition of the term 'hand made'.

And, I suppose, why a bass made with said machine would cost more that a 100% handmade (per whatever definition that is agreed on) bass.



Joe.

Yes, but i had to get my views on CNC machines out of the way first.

i think hand made means that most of the work was done by hand, whether it included fabrication or assembly of pre-fabricated products. So if a CNC machine is used then it is simply pre-fabricating the parts that will be hand assembled by the luthier. there will be other things that will be hand fabricated.

The electronics and plastic items complicate this issue, because usually machines are required to fabricate them.

 

[Brian Barrett]

My only gripe is why a Boutique cnc made bass costs so much more than 'hand made' basses. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Heck, aren't Brice and SX basses cnc??

Why do the boutique cnc basses cost more??



Joe.

Maybe this is what needs to be addressed.

Essex, Warwick, Ibanez, etc. These are mass produced at 100's of basses a week/month.

Custom Builder’s using CNC are still building less then a 100 a year I am talking about. Some would love to hit the mid 100's. I know “Custom Builder’s” or None CNC builder’s that produce in the almost 200 range.... which you might call Hand Built even though they still have Duplicarvers, etc.

So I think it’s the number of basses and how the CNC is used, is what you need addressed.

 

[BurningSkies]

The skilled labor verse skilled wood worker, insurance and salary, etc. keeps coming up. What if this Builder is the Skilled machine worker as well as the wood worker, as well as the employee and if he wants insurance, he has to pay for it, for him and his family and children...... now what if this builder doesn't have insurance and still does all this? Doesn't sound like he is spitting them out and making all this money you talk of does it? I can name a number of these builders! They own the machines they own because of the precision they offer and the detailed work they can produce. And it cost them more..... so I guess they need to raise prices, its cheaper to not pay for the machine which is why many don’t have them. Its not cheaper to own a CNC.

So to think that a CNC allows a builder to sit back and watch TV while some kid off the street runs a machine for a few bucks and hour while he is served lunch is just way out there.

I can see however that with out being in the industry or knowing how things actually work and what they cost can be misleading. Heck the fact of where the money goes when you pay for a 3K bass and who is getting rich is also misunderstood. Everything cost money from house's to kids, to office's/shops, machines, Insurance, Employees (if you have any), Wood, Hardware, Truss rods, and the list goes on as well as this list cost more every year.


Speaker Cabinets are almost all CNC'd......... so is a hand made one better?

Thanks Brian,

I'm glad you said this, and its why the 'CNC for the same price is a rip off' thing really bothers me.

I've talked with more than a few small, instrument makers, and CNC or not, they're not getting wealthy. They work hard and work constantly and love their jobs but it's still a 'marginal' business...especially in the US where we don't have public healthcare or other guarantees.

The feeling I have is that most luthiers are doing it for the love of building not to line their pockets.

 

[paintandsk8]

Mark I think you are getting beyond what any of us are trying to prove here. Obviously there is a point where you have to draw the line with what YOU define as handmade. So you think you've proved anything by nitpicking about the fact that no bass is truly hand made becuase the luthier didn't create the time and space in which he would then later assemble the atoms he created into a block of wood? Like I said in an earlier post, there are as many shades of grey as there are levels of luthier involvement in bass building. Some of us feel that the use of computer controlled routers for notable levels of wood shaping starts to infringe on the definition of "handmade". If you feel that the fact that your luthier didn't mine some iron and refine it to steel to make some frets and a bridge for your bass infringes on the definition of handmade, then more power to ya.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

The skilled labor verse skilled wood worker, insurance and salary, etc. keeps coming up. What if this Builder is the Skilled machine worker as well as the wood worker, as well as the employee and if he wants insurance, he has to pay for it, for him and his family and children...... now what if this builder doesn't have insurance and still does all this? Doesn't sound like he is spitting them out and making all this money you talk of does it? I can name a number of these builders! They own the machines they own because of the precision they offer and the detailed work they can produce. And it cost them more..... so I guess they need to raise prices, its cheaper to not pay for the machine which is why many don’t have them. Its not cheaper to own a CNC.

So to think that a CNC allows a builder to sit back and watch TV while some kid off the street runs a machine for a few bucks and hour while he is served lunch is just way out there.

I can see however that with out being in the industry or knowing how things actually work and what they cost can be misleading. Heck the fact of where the money goes when you pay for a 3K bass and who is getting rich is also misunderstood. Everything cost money from house's to kids, to office's/shops, machines, Insurance, Employees (if you have any), Wood, Hardware, Truss rods, and the list goes on as well as this list cost more every year.


Speaker Cabinets are almost all CNC'd......... so is a hand made one better?

All of this makes sense but is also, in my mind, just an arguement against small shops having cnc equipment.

If owning the machine wasn't helping in some way, they wouldn't be in use, right?

And as far a speaker cabs go, I guess others may feel different but to me a speaker cab is in no way, shape or form nearly as personal as a bass guitar.

And I guess that this answers my question about why boutique basses are so darned expensive.

But I can't say it makes 100% good sense to me.



Joe.

 

[Marlat]

I had Bud LeCompte put Barts in the custom bass he made for me.

Right or wrong, in my mind hardware is a totally seperate issue.

Cool, care to explain why it matters to you that the body was cut and shaped by the luthier, but you don't care how or why the pickups and or hardware came into existence? Not meaning to be harsh, but all three things, body, hardware and electronics contribute to the tone and/or feel or a bass and its seems a little inconsistent to me to get so worked up about whether the body is hand made but not to care about the other, equally imporant, parts.

My only gripe is why a Boutique cnc made bass costs so much more than 'hand made' basses. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Heck, aren't Brice and SX basses cnc??

Why do the boutique cnc basses cost more??

CNC does not equal mass produced. You can CNC rough cut a body (let me know if you need to have this explained to you) and still hand shape and finish the body. OTOH you could have robots or factory workers in Korea take a CNC'ed body and merely assemble it. The two are not the same thing, you seem to be treating them as such.

Do you get upset because you pay more for a LeCompte than a Wishnevsky? They are both hand made arnt they? Why aren't they the same price?

 

[Brian Barrett]

All of this makes sense but is also, in my mind, just an arguement against small shops having cnc equipment.

If owning the machine wasn't helping in some way, they wouldn't be in use, right?

And as far a speaker cabs go, I guess others may feel different but to me a speaker cab is in no way, shape or form nearly as personal as a bass guitar.

And I guess that this answers my question about why boutique basses are so darned expensive.

But I can't say it makes 100% good sense to me.



Joe.

Small steps, small steps


If you want to learn the insides and the truth behind everything I can offer a few address's of builders that will be more then happy to have free labor for a week or two.


The cabinet statement was a joke.......

 

[paintandsk8]

Speaker Cabinets are almost all CNC'd......... so is a hand made one better?

Brian, I don't think any of us are trying to say that hand made basses are better than CNC'ed basses. I know I'm not. We definetly want the differences to be acknowledged, but we have quickly found handmade to be undefinable. Some of us clearly prefer the "more handmade" side of things. But most of us are beyond the point of trying to prove anything is truly better than anything else. That never flies on TB.

 

[slugworth]

I find this to be weird...I bought a Squier Affinity Telecaster to noodle around on. I paid $148 NEW for this guitar. It is built very well. It plays well, it looks good and it sounds like a Telecaster should. My only gripe is the pickup selector switch feels a little flimsy, and there are a couple of mineral stains in the wood. Believe it or not, the fretwork
is very, very good, and the action is better than a lot of guitars I've played at 5 times the price. I'm still astonished at the price, in fact I think it's even underpriced. It's made in China, likely with a ton of automated machinery. The amount of actual human labor is probably minimal...How could this guitar be so inexpensive? With the parts, labor and shipping, how could there even be any profit in it?
Weird
Slug

 

[Marlat]

Mark I think you are getting beyond what any of us are trying to prove here. Obviously there is a point where you have to draw the line with what YOU define as handmade. So you think you've proved anything by nitpicking about the fact that no bass is truly hand made becuase the luthier didn't create the time and space in which he would then later assemble the atoms he created into a block of wood? Like I said in an earlier post, there are as many shades of grey as there are levels of luthier involvement in bass building. Some of us feel that the use of computer controlled routers for notable levels of wood shaping starts to infringe on the definition of "handmade". If you feel that the fact that your luthier didn't mine some iron and refine it to steel to make some frets and a bridge for your bass infringes on the definition of handmade, then more power to ya.

Actually that is my point. People say "handmade" like it actually means something in particular - it doesnt. The whole idea of comparing a CNC bass to a handmade bass is flawed because there is no one "CNC bass" and there is no one "handmade bass" - there is no stand by which to judge either of these things and, more importantly, luthiers all have different approaches to the level of "handmade'ness" or "CNC'd'ness" that they use.

Only an idiot would make a blanket statement like "why should a CNC bass cost more than a hand-made bass" because that statement is nonesense. No one seriously expects to pay no more than the cost of a Wishnevsky bass for a bass made partially on a CNC machine. Yet, people continually make that stupid statement.

Likewise there is nothing inherent in a "handmade" bass that makes it better than a CNC'd bass. Again, I have a handmade Hotwire Jazz bass, is it better than a Sadowsky jazz bass merely because the body wasn't rough cut on a CNC machine? To my mind no, however if some people want to thik that handmade must equal better, then more power to them.

 

[Minger]

China's 'stuff' (just about everything) has become increasingly better - as is such the case iwth the SX instruments.

Just remember the value of the Chinese currency...and the fact that it barely goes up each year.

 

[JimmyM]

Yeah, I'd like to see luthiers build basses by candlelight using a straightedge and a hacksaw as their only tools, and I'd like to see the old time general store with its open pickle barrel that everyone reaches into not get replaced by WalMart Supercenters with separate glass jars full of pickles, and I'd like to see old-time country doctors like Doc Cochran on Deadwood treat people in wood shacks in unsanitary conditions rather than the shiny new hospitals with doctors who are specialists using expensive machinery to find out what's wrong with us.

I know I'm not giving this argument the seriousness it deserves, but I discovered in alt.guitar.bass that you can post absolute facts for Lowtonejoe to read and he will cling to his beliefs. I remember when we had an argument about those fret refinishing kits that were sold on Ebay, and I totally refuted their effectiveness with absolute fact, and just because I had not bought one and experienced using it, Lowtonejoe refused to believe anything I or anyone else said about them. So my advice to you luthiers who are putting out facts to refute what Lowtone says to save your keystrokes. He will not believe that it actually costs more for a small builder to buy a CNC machine and keep it running. He sees the big companies like Fender and MM using them, and associates them with labor and cost saving without taking into account that a small builder builds and sells a fraction of the basses that Fender sells and it probably cost the small builder more to use CNC.

So God bless you Lowtone. You are right and everyone else is wrong. Keep up the good work!

 

[Lowtonejoe]

Cool, care to explain why it matters to you that the body was cut and shaped by the luthier, but you don't care how or why the pickups and or hardware came into existence? Not meaning to be harsh, but all three things, body, hardware and electronics contribute to the tone and/or feel or a bass and its seems a little inconsistent to me to get so worked up about whether the body is hand made but not to care about the other, equally imporant, parts.

Worked up?

Easy there hoss.

I guess it's because, from what I have seen, most manufacturers use hardware and electronics that are made by someone else.

If you don't mind, name the few who manufacture there own hardware and electronics. I would like to know so I can do my own comparing.

CNC does not equal mass produced. You can CNC rough cut a body (let me know if you need to have this explained to you) and still hand shape and finish the body. OTOH you could have robots or factory workers in Korea take a CNC'ed body and merely assemble it. The two are not the same thing, you seem to be treating them as such.

This is slowly becoming more apparent to me.

Not that I understand it completely.

Do you get upset because you pay more for a LeCompte than a Wishnevsky? They are both hand made arnt they? Why aren't they the same price?

Wish basses have their place but I have not seen one that measures up to a LeCompte.

However I would compare my LeCompte to any other like bass, cnc or hand made.



Joe.

 

[paintandsk8]

Yeah, I'd like to see luthiers build basses by candlelight using a straightedge and a hacksaw as their only tools, and I'd like to see the old time general store with its open pickle barrel that everyone reaches into not get replaced by WalMart Supercenters with separate glass jars full of pickles, and I'd like to see old-time country doctors like Doc Cochran on Deadwood treat people in wood shacks in unsanitary conditions rather than the shiny new hospitals with doctors who are specialists using expensive machinery to find out what's wrong with us.

I know I'm not giving this argument the seriousness it deserves, but I discovered in alt.guitar.bass that you can post absolute facts for Lowtonejoe to read and he will cling to his beliefs. I remember when we had an argument about those fret refinishing kits that were sold on Ebay, and I totally refuted their effectiveness with absolute fact, and just because I had not bought one and experienced using it, Lowtonejoe refused to believe anything I or anyone else said about them. So my advice to you luthiers who are putting out facts to refute what Lowtone says to save your keystrokes. He will not believe that it actually costs more for a small builder to buy a CNC machine and keep it running. He sees the big companies like Fender and MM using them, and associates them with labor and cost saving without taking into account that a small builder builds and sells a fraction of the basses that Fender sells and it probably cost the small builder more to use CNC.

So God bless you Lowtone. You are right and everyone else is wrong. Keep up the good work!

whoa buddy, no need to start in with the personal attacks.

 

[Lowtonejoe]

...snip...I remember when we had an argument about those fret refinishing kits that were sold on Ebay, and I totally refuted their effectiveness with absolute fact, and just because I had not bought one and experienced using it, Lowtonejoe refused to believe anything I or anyone else said about them. ...snip...

Seen one yet Boom?

Seems like we argued about intent also...



Joe.