Hand wired, tube, 200 watts or more...

[Eilif]

So, here is where my terminology breaks down. I know what turret Boards are. I assumed that is what is referred to as point to point. Is this the case, or is turret boards a form of point to poing, or are turret boards a separate thing from point to point?

The Sound city route sounds interesting, but I'd prefer to go new, rather than have to figure out how to mod, or even find a head that was blown, but not too badly blown to fix. No doubt it sounds good though.

 

[OneWayPunk]

This is a photo of a Gibson point to point built amp. Notice there are no boards of any type in there and the components are directly soldered to the tube sockets, pots, jacks, etc..

Here is a photo of a Hiwatt, which is turret board construction.
The components are mostly located on the turret boards and are much more neatly arranged and easier to work on.

There are also tag boards and eyelet boards(like a fender), these are both similar to turret boards but harder to deal with in my opinion.

 

[Bassorama57]

Amps and Effects (Tipbook Series) by Hugo Pinksterboer (available from B&N) is a good place to start;
Valve Amplifers by Morgan Jones is pretty complicated (and makes my head hurt) and technical.

Turret boards are an intermediate step from "PTP" to PCBs. More serviceable than PCBs (if done right), but I think still fits your criteria of "hand wired" and "servicable into the indefinite future" as opposed to PCBs.

(Realize you know all this most likely, but posting for the benefit of lurkers)

 

[johnk_10]

okay, being an amp tech and a bass player for several decades i guess that i'll throw my 2 cents in........

First, i think that you have alot of good and accurate information from those that have replied to this thread.

IMO, i true PTP amp has all of the components hand wired to each other (as found in the old silvertones), where the parts are actually bridging across tube sockets and a minimal amount of terminal strips. to me, they are not that easy to work on since the parts are laid out all over the place.

Many people "consider" the vintage HiWatt, SoundCity etc terminal strip amps to be PTP also, since the components are hand wired to each other as well, and then have a lead dress connecting the cicuit to the tube sockets, pots and x-formers. This also goes for the vintage Fender eyelet and Marshall plexi style turret board amps. vintage Sunns are kind of a cross between the two. but technically, purists don't consider them to be point to point.

To me, the eyelet/turret board amps are the type that are the easiest to repair/mod/unmod and the most bullet proof. however, i also agree with PBG that a well designed PCB amp, like an early Marshall JMP design, a Soldano or an old SVT is also a pretty easy amp to repair (and/or mod), just not quite as simple as a turret/eyelet type as 90% of the time you can get to the components quicker (not having to remove a PCB) although on vintage SVT's you have access to both sides of many of the PCB's without having to remove them.

Sonically, IMO, between a PTP and a well designed PCB amp, there are minimal differences that have to do with capacitance and component proximity/layout that a PCB amp has all of its traces on the same flat plain whereas a PTP amp does not. but again, these sonic diffences are VERY small and tolerances of the actual components can have a greater effect than the "one plain trace" effect.

One of my favorite heads that I own is a '74 SoundCity Bass 150. It is built similar to a Plexi Marshall/HiWatt design and it sounds incredible. I have serviced it with new filter caps and tubes and expect it to last another 30 years easily. Running four KT100's in it, I have measured it at 182 watts RMS before clipping with a 400Hz test signal on a scope. It feels way more powerful and fuller than my Traynor YBA200-2.

Here's a couple of pics of it:

IMO, these are a great investment and are destined to appreciate in value since they are so often overlooked.


I realize that you want something new, but another amp that you might want to consider is a Sunn 2000S. Also a great investment and possibly one of the best sounding tube bass amps ever made. They are conservatively rated at only 130 watts (mine, a factory SS rectified one measures in at 162 watts RMS) and it too blows my Traynor YBA200-2 in the weeds, as far as volume and headroom goes.

As far as a "new" head goes, I did "scratch-build' myself a "PTP" (turret style) tube bass head using a Marshall type chassis with custom-ordered Heyboer transformers and mounted it into a Northcoast Music Vox head cabinet so i would have a tube "super beatle" to go with my 2-15 JBL Vox "beatle" cab. It puts out 187 Watts RMS and also sounds huge. this is one of those cases, where sometimes, you have to build something if it doesn't already exist.

here's a few pics of it:

 

[Red Planet]

okay, being an amp tech and a bass player for several decades i guess that i'll throw my 2 cents in........

First, i think that you have alot of good and accurate information from those that have replied to this thread.

IMO, i true PTP amp has all of the components hand wired to each other (as found in the old silvertones), where the parts are actually bridging across tube sockets and a minimal amount of terminal strips. to me, they are not that easy to work on since the parts are laid out all over the place.

Many people "consider" the vintage HiWatt, SoundCity etc terminal strip amps to be PTP also, since the components are hand wired to each other as well, and then have a lead dress connecting the cicuit to the tube sockets, pots and x-formers. This also goes for the vintage Fender eyelet and Marshall plexi style turret board amps. vintage Sunns are kind of a cross between the two. but technically, purists don't consider them to be point to point.

To me, the eyelet/turret board amps are the type that are the easiest to repair/mod/unmod and the most bullet proof. however, i also agree with PBG that a well designed PCB amp, like an early Marshall JMP design, a Soldano or an old SVT is also a pretty easy amp to repair (and/or mod), just not quite as simple as a turret/eyelet type as 90% of the time you can get to the components quicker (not having to remove a PCB) although on vintage SVT's you have access to both sides of many of the PCB's without having to remove them.

Sonically, IMO, between a PTP and a well designed PCB amp, there are minimal differences that have to do with capacitance and component proximity/layout that a PCB amp has all of its traces on the same flat plain whereas a PTP amp does not. but again, these sonic diffences are VERY small and tolerances of the actual components can have a greater effect than the "one plain trace" effect.

One of my favorite heads that I own is a '74 SoundCity Bass 150. It is built similar to a Plexi Marshall/HiWatt design and it sounds incredible. I have serviced it with new filter caps and tubes and expect it to last another 30 years easily. Running four KT100's in it, I have measured it at 182 watts RMS before clipping with a 400Hz test signal on a scope. It feels way more powerful and fuller than my Traynor YBA200-2.

Here's a couple of pics of it:

IMO, these are a great investment and are destined to appreciate in value since they are so often overlooked.


I realize that you want something new, but another amp that you might want to consider is a Sunn 2000S. Also a great investment and possibly one of the best sounding tube bass amps ever made. They are conservatively rated at only 130 watts (mine, a factory SS rectified one measures in at 162 watts RMS) and it too blows my Traynor YBA200-2 in the weeds, as far as volume and headroom goes.

As far as a "new" head goes, I did "scratch-build' myself a "PTP" (turret style) tube bass head using a Marshall type chassis with custom-ordered Heyboer transformers and mounted it into a Northcoast Music Vox head cabinet so i would have a tube "super beatle" to go with my 2-15 JBL Vox "beatle" cab. It puts out 187 Watts RMS and also sounds huge. this is one of those cases, where sometimes, you have to build something if it doesn't already exist.

here's a few pics of it:

What he said.

There are high quality and poor quality versions of any of these methods of construction.

Nice Bass Amp dude! Could you build a version of that with 6 KT88's?

 

[johnk_10]

What he said.

There are high quality and poor quality versions of any of these methods of construction.

Nice Bass Amp dude! Could you build a version of that with 6 KT88's?

Thanks for the kind words. yes, i could build one with 6 KT88's. i would just need the desired power and output x-former specs for it.

 

[vapochilled]

Thanks for the kind words. yes, i could build one with 6 KT88's. i would just need the desired power and output x-former specs for it.

What about this transformer?

McIntosh Audio Autoformer Type 044-244

Outputs: 16ohm, 8ohm, 4ohm, & 2ohm with common ground
Inputs: 1ohm & 0.5ohm with common ground
Frequency Range = 10Hz-100KHz
Power Level = 300 Watts

 

[Eilif]

Hey JohnK_10,
Thanks for taking the time to make some of these things plain. I guess I was one of those folks who "considered" Turret to be the same as P-T-P, but it's always best to know the precise definitions. Great amps by the way, you've given me some interesting vintage options to consider. That Super Beatle is a Beauty inside and out.

 

[johnk_10]

that tranny might work but i don't know its specs. i think that it would be simpler to have Heyboer make up the trannies using Partridge specs (200 watt Hiwatt style).

 

[johnk_10]

Hey JohnK_10,
Thanks for taking the time to make some of these things plain. I guess I was one of those folks who "considered" Turret to be the same as P-T-P, but it's always best to know the precise definitions. Great amps by the way, you've given me some interesting vintage options to consider. That Super Beatle is a Beauty inside and out.

thanks Eilif. you're most welcome.

 

[Thingus995]

Link Removed

the not so space age lookin ones are GORGEOUS!! HOLY COW!!!



:tup:

 

[jokerjkny]

Oh yeah, Alessandro. You can get a solid gold chassis at about $50K.

i have the BH without the gold chassis, and its price is a bit more sane, tho its still pretty dam expensive for a 60 watt bass amp. still, one of my all time bass amp favs. like a glossier, prettier, more detailed db359.

i did do a handful of gigs using my avalon u5's speaker in option, feeding my 1200 watt stewart world 1.2 into my ul310 pair, but it never did quite sound right. had this weird sense of removal, like it was coming thru its own PA, if that makes sense.

 

[jokerjkny]

I've seen just as many arguments against hand-wiring as for it. The only argument for hand-wiring that I know of is that it's not on a PCB; and the only argument against PCB that I know of it that it's not hand-wired. IOW I have not seen an argument with any substance there. People against PCB's say PCB's are more prone to breakage, but I don't think that claim is based on any facts.

I'm not really picking a side or saying I know best- but I am saying don't get too caught up in the "hand-wired mojo mystique" unless you consciously want to.

+1

there are MANY PCB amps that i love which are handmade, despite using PCB! i'm thinking bogner, fuchs, etc.

its all in how you do it.

 

[jokerjkny]

(...)

I WANT IT, I WANT IT NOW

 

[fireincairo]

Your wife is pretty awesome.

 

[fireincairo]

This is a photo of a Gibson point to point built amp. Notice there are no boards of any type in there and the components are directly soldered to the tube sockets, pots, jacks, etc..

\.

That's also known as a "hanging garden" style design. It's pretty typical from amps made in the 60s. I've owned some old Guilds, Sanos, and other oddball amps that were just like that. That's actually true ptp wiring. It's literally wired from point to point with no board, right?

Of course, most technicians appreciate a turret board to work on. Hanging gardens can be a mess to mod or repair, especially if their a more complex circuit.

 

[roflol]

talk to matamp, there the people who make orange amps the way they were meant to be made! not electric.

 

[cusar5]

If I was in your situation, I would start looking around for an amp tech or builder who could custom make something to my exact specifications. A year and a half is plenty of time to come up with a truly awesome design.

When I saw Torche their bass player was using an amp made by this guy [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. He was running it through an Emperor 6x10 and a 2x15 and it sounded incredible.

 

[dean owens]

i wish tube amps weren't so dang heavy. i love tube amps for guitar but have always been a ss man for my bass. i had to play this weekend and my gk head isn't working. so i took my fender blackfaced tremolux head. it's a guitar amp (not setup for a bass at all) and only 35 watts. wow. it was amazing how good it sounded. and i'm surprised it kept up as well as it did. there was a part of my sound that missed... but a whole new part that was pretty cool. from this weekend i could see myself building a 100-200 watt head with a bax-stack and a master volume and being quite happy. except for the dang weight of it all. i'll never go that route. i'm going to be looking into the shuttle and other small amps for ease of carrying.

good luck with the search of your amp. i'm in complete agreement with you in what you're looking for. after this weekend i can say that i'm sure you'll be a happy man for years to come.

 

[monolied]

IOW I have not seen an argument with any substance there. People against PCB's say PCB's are more prone to breakage, but I don't think that claim is based on any facts.

A straight-forward "old-school" designed tube amp (I mean no logic controllers, no relays [even so, but..], no junction field or any other rather "new" components on the signal path, etc) can be easily serviced

When you, like me, had an amp exploding three times in a row because of faulty tubes (fine matched and tested ones, 200,- the quad), and everytime had someone re-solder several parts on the pcb; when you had to close burnt holes and resolder narrow circuit paths which just tend to go up in smoke, together with rather unhealthy plastics and again parts of the pcb; when you ever had to untangle and entirely unscrew and unplug the PCB to get on the backside; when you ever had to replace scratchy pots soldered on a f%&$/§ing pcb and didn't get parts fitting to the, of course, very fixed layout (besides having to get out all knobs, of course, 'cause theyre all on the same pcb ).... well, there comes a day, when you don't doubt the slightest bit about the advantages of a "handwired" design with flying/wired parts anymore.

Something like turret board *can* be ok (depending on the intelligence of the construction)... but, regarding maintenance, when it's only halfways smartly built, handwired beats pcb in above mentioned situations... that is, when it comes to ordinary life with a tube amp. That is, of course, imo.