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Headroom

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::::BASSIST::::

Progress Not Perfection.
Sep 2, 2004
12,524
291
Vancouver, BC Canada
#1
Does your amp have a huge amount of power that you dont use? Do you think amps that are very powerful just sound better?

I'm considering upgrading from the B800 to the B1500. I know I will never need all the vol that the b1500 produces, but maybe all that power sounds better?
 
#2
This debate will go on and on, but my personal opinion is I like as much headroom as possible. All that big clean power can't be a bad thing, can it? I've done a number of gigs now with my 600 watt (@4ohms) Epifani UL502, but have now paired with a Crest CA-9 (2000Watts bridged at 4ohms). I personally feel that somehow, though I'm not sure how, whatever hole was left out in the frequency spectrum that my UL502 couldn't completely push is now very nicely filled in thanks to the Crest. I have nothing to back this up but my ears, so take it with a grain of salt.
 
#3
Headroom all the way.
I use a DB750 (big gun) lots O headroom.
I can use my TF550A into the power section if needed.
Not sure if I can do this with LMII. If either my 500w amps can't handle it the DB will.
I have a UL902C that has massive headroom.
It's for sale if you're interested btw.
 
#5
If I understand correctly, "headroom" is how much gain is possible before clipping. If that's right, then there are a couple of reasons why more headroom would sound better to some people: First, they may just prefer their tone completely uncompressed and as free as possible of artifacts from the amp. Second, louder sounds better to a lot of people, particularly in the low end, and an un-clipped (uncompressed) signal allows those big low frequencies to get louder without necessarily bringing up the perceived volume of the whole signal.
 
#6
"Headroom" has been used to apply to a number of different things, but what I think it really means in the context VEGANBASS is referring to is the amount of amplifier power you have over and above the power you actually use in your situation. Loudness per se doesn't really have anything to do with it, nor does the question of whether the amp's rating is lower or higher than the cab's rating. If you have a 200 W amp and never use more than 100, you have headroom. If you have a 1000 W amp but are constantly hitting the amp's limits, you don't have headroom.

Personally, beyond a certain point, I doubt whether adding ever more power would make an appreciable difference to the sound. If, say, you already have three times the max power you ever use, is having 6 times the power going to sound much better, all else being equal? I doubt it. But if you're straining your current amp, and you go to a newer and bigger amp that doesn't strain, then yes, that would generally sound better.

OP: are you hitting the limits of the B800, do you think? If you are, or are getting close, going to the B1500 might be a good idea. It would also give you some flexibility if you think you ever might need to do a gig where you need to play louder than you do now.
 
#7
No, the b800 has adequate volume for my current band. I agree with your assesment of the headroom game. But, I remember adding an older stewart world poweramp to one of my previous rigs and thinking how great it sounded having that extra power even though my volume was about the same as it always had been.

So the question is more about better tone then increased volume.
 
#9
VEGANBASS said:
No, the b800 has adequate volume for my current band. I agree with your assesment of the headroom game. But, I remember adding an older stewart world poweramp to one of my previous rigs and thinking how great it sounded having that extra power even though my volume was about the same as it always had been.

So the question is more about better tone then increased volume.
Click to expand...

Two possibilities: (1) the Stewart may simply have been a better amp than what you were using, and (2) your volume may not actually have been quite the same. That is, your average volume might have been about the same, but the newer amp might have allowed peaks that were previously slightly compressed to be reproduced more faithfully and thus to sound better. Not all clipping invariably sounds immediately horrible; small amounts may be barely audible, depending on the amp. You might actually have been clipping a little bit before and not known it. Also, remember, when think of your volume being "about the same," that even a 3 dB difference, which is not huge to the ear, takes a doubling of power. So in the second rig you might in fact have been using a substantial amount of power that wasn't available to you before. Which would also help explain why it sounded better.
 
#10
Richard Lindsey said:
Personally, beyond a certain point, I doubt whether adding ever more power would make an appreciable difference to the sound. If, say, you already have three times the max power you ever use, is having 6 times the power going to sound much better, all else being equal? I doubt it. But if you're straining your current amp, and you go to a newer and bigger amp that doesn't strain, then yes, that would generally sound better.
Click to expand...

I was going to slightly disagree with you, but then you made my point just a moment later:

Richard Lindsey said:
...your volume may not actually have been quite the same. That is, your average volume might have been about the same, but the newer amp might have allowed peaks that were previously slightly compressed to be reproduced more faithfully and thus to sound better. Not all clipping invariably sounds immediately horrible; small amounts may be barely audible, depending on the amp. You might actually have been clipping a little bit before and not known it. Also, remember, when think of your volume being "about the same," that even a 3 dB difference, which is not huge to the ear, takes a doubling of power. So in the second rig you might in fact have been using a substantial amount of power that wasn't available to you before. Which would also help explain why it sounded better.
Click to expand...

:)

As to the bit about having a 200W amp and only using 100 of those watts, the problem is that (without specialized measuring equipment) nobody knows exactly how many watts they are using from one moment to the next, regardless of the size of the amp. So then you get into a sticky mess: is the limiter lamp flashing a true indication of having reached max clean headroom? Different amps use different limiter/clipping topologies and indicators. What about audible distortion- well, then, what about "imperceptible" distortion? I'm just saying it's hard to judge these factors under normal circumstances.
 
#11
bongomania said:
As to the bit about having a 200W amp and only using 100 of those watts, the problem is that (without specialized measuring equipment) nobody knows exactly how many watts they are using from one moment to the next, regardless of the size of the amp. So then you get into a sticky mess: is the limiter lamp flashing a true indication of having reached max clean headroom? Different amps use different limiter/clipping topologies and indicators. What about audible distortion- well, then, what about "imperceptible" distortion? I'm just saying it's hard to judge these factors under normal circumstances.
Click to expand...

Quite true. Considering an amp's clip lights to be gospel truth would be naive.
 
#12
Up-Grade to the B1500, you will never regret it. Or, just keep the head you have, and run a power amp under it. It's the same preamp section as the 1500. Just add power to it, it'll be the same thing. Buy twice as much wattage as you think you need. That will be about right, in the end.
 
#16
Barrigas said:
Headroom, ok...But what about the cabs?
Adding such amount of extra power will damage the cabs, right?
How do you protect your cabs?
Let's say you are running 2000W into 2 cabs of 400W each?
Click to expand...

Crown engineering suggests running an amp that is 1.5 to 2 times the RMS rating of the cabs. So a 2000 RMS watt amp into 2, 400 RMS watt cabs is slightly to large but I would be OK with it. Just don't run it wide open. :)
 
#17
Bass_Pounder said:
Clearly you still do not understand the concept of headroom.

Just because an amp will push 2,000 watts does not mean you are giving the cabs 2,000 watts.
Click to expand...

Clearly not.
Can anyone help?
Lets say: i have a SWR Goliath Senior, 1000W, 4 Ohms.
And a Power Amp Yamaha P5000S that delivers 2600W bridge at 4Ohms. To get the amount of volume that i need i have to open the power amp all the way. And when i do that, my cab starts to "fark"...

Sorry for any bad english...
 
#18
Barrigas said:
Clearly not.
Can anyone help?
Lets say: i have a SWR Goliath Senior, 1000W, 4 Ohms.
And a Power Amp Yamaha P5000S that delivers 2600W bridge at 4Ohms. To get the amount of volume that i need i have to open the power amp all the way. And when i do that, my cab starts to "fark"...

Sorry for any bad english...
Click to expand...

In this case you need more cabs. Being able to correctly hear your equipment and understand what is happening to it is part of the learning curve.

EDIT: By the way I didn't mean to insult you with the learning curve comment.
 
#20
Bass_Pounder said:
Clearly you still do not understand the concept of headroom.

Just because an amp will push 2,000 watts does not mean you are giving the cabs 2,000 watts.
Click to expand...

OTOH, that amp may in fact push the full 2,000 watts into whatever cab you have plugged in, regardless of the cab's rating, if you send in a sharp enough voltage spike from the bass and preamp. I know you probably knew that already, but I just wanted to clarify.
 

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