Heavy Metal & Cabs Discussion

[Rnr..........4]

Thank you all for the terrific answers. Yes, I did make the mistake of listening with my eyes. I guess I forgot it's really the sound person making those bass decisions for the bass player. Not all bands have this sort of boomy bass sound but what I mean is I prefer bass players where you can hear the bass notes whether that's clean or overdriven slightly. So yes bands like Rush, AC/DC, Manowar that sort of thing etc. Love Slayer and while Tom Araya is a great bass player, it's not overly entertaining to watch him play because you can barely hear the notes they blend so well with the drumming. Maybe that's just me. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Rnr..........4]

By the way that's my current dilemma with gear. I'm just trying to make a sensible purchase without spending a ton of cash. I have a Bass Block 800 right now and the GED 2112 pedal for the extra EQ and sansamp sound. Running the Ged XLR into the line in on the BB800 and using headphones. (Confused about this too whether XLR is better than the effects loop)

No cab yet but looking at a 2x10 Hartke or 2x15 Mesa. If it's all about monitoring on stage and looks then I guess it makes sense you'd have a 4x10 up there on stage for a metal gig.

 

[spatters]

I prefer bass players where you can hear the bass notes whether that's clean or overdriven slightly. So yes bands like Rush, AC/DC, Manowar that sort of thing etc.

That was going to be my next question: "what sort of tone are you going for?"

Here's the part where I high-five you because you're saying what I've said for a long time. The current trend is heavily distorted Darkglass bass tone. The problem with Darkglass tone is that it takes a lot of careful work to make it sit well in a mix, even in the perfectly controlled conditions of a studio...and live it's generally a huge mess, because the inevitable resonances and muddiness of live sound multiply the intrinsic lack of definition of a heavily distorted bass. In that case, sure, stay lost in the rhythm guitar, because if you have real low end, it's going to be a boomy mess.

However, like you, I prefer the sort of tone that sits under guitars, and can be heard and felt.
Also, John Campbell is a BEAST.

No cab yet but looking at a 2x10 Hartke or 2x15 Mesa.

Rule of thumb, 2x10 = 1x15, so you'll need two 2x10 cabs to equal the projection of a 2x15. Also a single 2x10 won't handle the power of the Bass Block. (You can run one 2x10, but you'll have to be careful not to blow it up.) Since you've got a micro class D head, you can get two 8 ohm 2x10s and stack them on end (4 speakers in a vertical line), which will give you amazing dispersion and projection. I'd go for that unless I got a really good deal on a 2x15.

(If you're buying used, make sure to bring a Phillips screwdriver and open the back up, to make sure the speakers are what's supposed to be in the cabinet. Unscrupulous sellers will take a blown cabinet, stuff in the cheapest possible speakers from Parts Express, and sell the cabinet hoping you don't notice. Replacing them will often cost more than a brand new cabinet would.)

 

[Rnr..........4]

Spatters, yeah it's something I've noticed over the last few years. Everyone jumping on this Darkglass stuff and a lot in metal. I don't really get it. For the classic heavy metal, thrash we got coming out of Germany the classic tube amps sound way better than the Darkglass stuff.

As for the cabs. I always prefer to buy new so I know what I am getting. Unless it's a bass of course.

 

[Dave TB Killer]

 

[shoot-r]

I've noticed with a lot of these underground heavy metal or black metal bands they seem to go for 4x10's but I've noticed all you get in a lot of them is this boomy generic bass sound behind the guitars. I personally see (2) 2x10's more than enough and give you a bit more definition allowing you to stand out more as a bass player. Anyone agree?

Of course an Ampeg 6x10 or 8x10 would be killer but I'm not no where close to getting in a band like AC/DC stadium levels to spend that kind of money. For a mid sized festival I guess a 4x10 would be required.

I'm working with a "LOUD", 5 pcs., country/rock act.
My backline amp consists of "two" old, (inexpensive), 8 ohm, 500 watt, Avatar Neo 210 cabinets stacked as a vertical 410.
Amp is a Mesa 800+, a Sans Amp BDDI in front of the Subway, a old, old, passive Jazz.

Recently we did a show where 3 bands played.
Because of time constraints, all bands bassist used my rig and their personal bass.
My Mesa head was DI'd to the FOH.

First band straight country.
After their show and while they were moving out of the way for the next act, His comments were, he absolutely loved the set-up, first time in along time he could actually hear his playing clearly.
His personal rig, Fend*r 500 combo.

Second band was Death Metal.
Their bassist commented to me (with a sneer) before their show, his personal rig is a Amp*g 810 and a G.K. 700RB head and he had his doubts that thing (the vertical 410) would be able to keep up.
After they we're finished I avoided him for his rudeness but he came up to me to say, he couldn't believe it, it felt every bit as loud as his set-up but clearer, less boom and mud.

We played last.
After we were finished and tearing down the Death Metal bass player was still there and asking questions about the 800+ and the vertical 410.

The vertical 410's used for what it is and within it's capability's is surprising.
I just sold a Bergantino NV610 that was my big stage, outdoor job cabinet and have went with the old vertical for everything were playing at.

 

[spatters]

The vertical 410's used for what it is and within it's capability's is surprising.

Vertical speaker setups are great! I'd love a vertical 4x12, but vertical 2x12s are rare, they're often 4 ohm, and I can't afford the existing options right now. Vertical 2x10s are common and a lot cheaper.

 

[Rnr..........4]

I'm working with a "LOUD", 5 pcs., country/rock act.
My backline amp consists of "two" old, (inexpensive), 8 ohm, 500 watt, Avatar Neo 210 cabinets stacked as a vertical 410.
Amp is a Mesa 800+, a Sans Amp BDDI in front of the Subway, a old, old, passive Jazz.

Recently we did a show where 3 bands played.
Because of time constraints, all bands bassist used my rig and their personal bass.
My Mesa head was DI'd to the FOH.

First band straight country.
After their show and while they were moving out of the way for the next act, His comments were, he absolutely loved the set-up, first time in along time he could actually hear his playing clearly.
His personal rig, Fend*r 500 combo.

Second band was Death Metal.
Their bassist commented to me (with a sneer) before their show, his personal rig is a Amp*g 810 and a G.K. 700RB head and he had his doubts that thing (the vertical 410) would be able to keep up.
After they we're finished I avoided him for his rudeness but he came up to me to say, he couldn't believe it, it felt every bit as loud as his set-up but clearer, less boom and mud.

We played last.
After we were finished and tearing down the Death Metal bass player was still there and asking questions about the 800+ and the vertical 410.

The vertical 410's used for what it is and within it's capability's is surprising.
I just sold a Bergantino NV610 that was my big stage, outdoor job cabinet and have went with the old vertical for everything were playing at.

Doesn't the Sansamp DI (or any EQ pedal) go from the effects send and back into the effects return tho? Instead of putting it after the bass and compressor for example? I was looking at pedal layouts and the images sometimes show that being the case unless you're just using the Sansamp as a dirty tone stomp?

 

[spatters]

Doesn't the Sansamp DI (or any EQ pedal) go from the effects send and back into the effects return tho? Instead of putting it after the bass and compressor for example?

You can switch the 1/4" out of the BDDI to either instrument or line level, so you can either run it into the front of the amp or into the effects loop.

 

[Amajew]

The best period

View attachment 4254800

my own personal experience....

I like many others have spent thousands on gear... my recollection has been the following..

cabs..
hartke 410/115
eden 2 410's
ampeg 410 hlf
gk 2 neo212's
Swr megalith 810
Swr 610
Arnopol bodai 112
barefaced 2 410's
and finally....

berg 2 hdn212's

amps
hartke 3500
eden WT800
GK1001RB
GK 1200 legacy
Mesa D800, 800+, WD800
dark glass AOU900
and finally

berg forte hp

I can't begin to tell you how much I love my berg rig. The power, clarity, control and whatever you throw at that rig it just keeps pounding harder the more you turn up. I can blow away 412 slinging guitarists with ease describing sheer volume.

What is magical is learning how to EQ your rig, as well as using a good compressor, LPF and HPF. Those 3 pieces of gear are amazing at working out your bass tone to get it clear, impactful and downright slamming!!!

To me it's about having multiple speakers, even when I"m not playing stupid loud metal. The extra speaker area just sounds better.

As others mentioned the stacked cabs does disperse very well.

One of the best pieces of gear I own is my Sansamp DP-3x pedal. The clean preamp along with the overdrive channel that keeps the top end distorted and the low end clean is a total game changer.

I've owned some amazing gear through my playing career, but there is something about the berg stuff for playing bass that the other stuff is just missing!

All in all you have to decide what works best for you. You can sift through dozens of pages of what works for other players, in the same genre you play... but that will not tell you what sounds good to YOU!!!

Enjoy the ride!!!

 

[Rnr..........4]

You can switch the 1/4" out of the BDDI to either instrument or line level, so you can either run it into the front of the amp or into the effects loop.

Still confused. So cord from bass into the BDDI and then into the amp? What if you want to use both your amp EQ and BDDI EQ instead of bypassing?

 

[shoot-r]

Vertical speaker setups are great! I'd love a vertical 4x12, but vertical 2x12s are rare, they're often 4 ohm, and I can't afford the existing options right now. Vertical 2x10s are common and a lot cheaper.

What's wild about my Avatar cabs (to me anyway).

I put this vertical 410 rig together back in 2008, the first heads I was powering it with was Mesa M-6 Carbines.
A friend in a local blues band had lost their bassplayer so the friend ordered a new Avatar 210 Neo cabinet with the intentions of picking up bass.
A few days after his new Avatar arrived the old bass player came back to the band.
My friend called me to see if I might be interested in the still in the shipping box cab for $200.00, (at that time they were $319.00 direct from Avatar.)
I bought it and liked it enough that I ordered a matching cab the next day from Avatar.
BEST $519.00 in "two" cabs I've EVER spent on equipment!
Those cabs have been gigged in a working band 13+ years, they've been nothing short of great to my ears.

Doesn't the Sansamp DI (or any EQ pedal) go from the effects send and back into the effects return tho? Instead of putting it after the bass and compressor for example? I was looking at pedal layouts and the images sometimes show that being the case unless you're just using the Sansamp as a dirty tone stomp?

My signal chain:
Old, old, passive, 4 string Jazz or a 2016, 4 string, active, Elite Jazz />/ Sans Amp BDDI, set as clean as I can figure out to set it, (distortion doesn't fit with the type of stuff we're doing). The Sans Amp buffers (compressor type of effect?) before the Mesa 800+ allowing it to go with louder settings and stay cleaner. />/ Mesa Subway 800+ head. Head controls still in play. Gain 11:00, HPF 1:00 to 1:30 depending on the boom in the room, voicing 11:00, bass 11:00, low mid gain 10:00, low mid freq., 10:00, hi mid gain 12:30, hi mid freq.,11:00, master 3:00.
(For me the 800+'s Hpf is the most useful bass item to come along recently.) />/ Direct send from Mesa to Foh />/ Vertical 410.

What has worked for "my ears" for any dirt in the sound/tone is to use a pedal and keep everything else clean.

 

[Verb the Noun]

212s. Go with 212s.

12"s were a game changer for me after years of playing metal with 10"s. Recently jumped to 15"s and am pretty sold on those as well. 10"s (to me and cab specific obviously) have punch but get lost in the mix with heavy guitars.

I've heard people say things like "What sits best in the mix may not sound the best by itself" a lot over the years. Several in this thread have said it, and I was on board with that concept until recently. Upgraded my entire rig and now have the best tone I've ever had with that tone sitting so nicely in the mix I can actually play a bit quieter.

I have since decided that being heard in the mix is not the same thing as sounding good. If it requires making your bass sound like a braying donkey to be heard, the audience is hearing a braying donkey tone. If everyone in the band sounds good individually AND together, the band will sound better.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

12"s were a game changer for me after years of playing metal with 10"s. Recently jumped to 15"s and am pretty sold on those as well. 10"s (to me and cab specific obviously) have punch but get lost in the mix with heavy guitars.

I've heard people say things like "What sits best in the mix may not sound the best by itself" a lot over the years. Several in this thread have said it, and I was on board with that concept until recently. Upgraded my entire rig and now have the best tone I've ever had with that tone sitting so nicely in the mix I can actually play a bit quieter.

I have since decided that being heard in the mix is not the same thing as sounding good. If it requires making your bass sound like a braying donkey to be heard, the audience is hearing a braying donkey tone. If everyone in the band sounds good individually AND together, the band will sound better.

Well, what they mean is, bass down, mids up. Most people don't like the honk that you get when adding mids, and nobody wants the bass guitar to sound thin either. But, bass down, and mids up makes you pop through everything. To me, the best tone is flat. Adjust bass for boomyness, adjust mids (down) to blend. That about it. Tone knob works treble.

 

[Verb the Noun]

Well, what they mean is, bass down, mids up. Most people don't like the honk that you get when adding mids, and nobody wants the bass guitar to sound thin either. But, bass down, and mids up makes you pop through everything. To me, the best tone is flat. Adjust bass for boomyness, adjust mids (down) to blend. That about it. Tone knob works treble.

Oh, I get exactly what they mean. What I'm saying is if you need to sound like garbage to be heard, you still sound like garbage.

 

[chaosMK]

For metal I only really like cabs with a lower mids bump (I've owned many cabs over the years). Just sits in the mix better.

My favorite are Mesa PH cabs. I havent jammed on the new Subways, although my understanding is that they were designed a bit more general than specialized for aggressive styles. I feel like PH cabs were designed to hold up against their guitar line (Rectifier, Mark, etc) which is famously aggressive.

When using a lot of OD or distortion I like to roll off the tweeters. If I was dedicated to d00m I could probably go tweeterless. For faster technical metal I want the top end clarity though.

I think a lot of metal bassists go with generic loud sound cuz budget. You tend to need a kind of big rig, and quality/specialized cabs. IMO it's an uphill battle to cut through in metal between the kick drum and guitar. My best sound in the mix is a little thin and overly aggressive by itself... but in the mix it sounds like how I'd want it to. Bass (below 100hz) flat or cut, low mids bumped, mid range fine tuned, turn up Master more.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Oh, I get exactly what they mean. What I'm saying is if you need to sound like garbage to be heard, you still sound like garbage.

Word. Hahaha

 

[Rnr..........4]

I guess if I ever got back into a band there would be two guitarists for sure. I prefer power trio's but that seems pretty rare these days. Not all of us can be the next Rush haha. Then again AC/DC have two guitarists and the bass sits very nicely but with underground metal I've noticed the bass always gets lost slightly unless you're playing Cannibal Corpse style stuff where the bass is tuned lower which I'm not really a fan of but like the music. I'm a rocker at heart.

 

[spatters]

IMO it's an uphill battle to cut through in metal between the kick drum and guitar.

That's because too many metal guitarists have bedroom tone on stage, with huge bass and the mids sucked out. Since the bass is so pumped up, the only room left in the mix for the actual bass guitar is to boost your mids, which means you sound like an 80s Crate any time you're not playing under the guitars.

 

[Lesfunk]

That's because too many metal guitarists have bedroom tone on stage, with huge bass and the mids sucked out. Since the bass is so pumped up, the only room left in the mix for the actual bass guitar is to boost your mids, which means you sound like an 80s Crate any time you're not playing under the guitars.

There’s more than a”spattering” of truth to this!