Heavy Metal & Cabs Discussion

[Rnr..........4]

I've noticed with a lot of these underground heavy metal or black metal bands they seem to go for 4x10's but I've noticed all you get in a lot of them is this boomy generic bass sound behind the guitars. I personally see (2) 2x10's more than enough and give you a bit more definition allowing you to stand out more as a bass player. Anyone agree?

Of course an Ampeg 6x10 or 8x10 would be killer but I'm not no where close to getting in a band like AC/DC stadium levels to spend that kind of money. For a mid sized festival I guess a 4x10 would be required.

 

[Lesfunk]

That has more to do with how the bass (and other instruments) is eq’ed than the cab.
With all the thick distortion and overlapping frequencies from the guitars, the bass has to be able to find its space in the mix to cut through and be heard

 

[Rnr..........4]

Would two 2x10's do that do you think in a live situation?

 

[Lesfunk]

Would two 2x10's do that do you think in a live situation?

I am a fan of the two 2x10 cabinets, Especially stacked vertically to get them closer to the ear for better monitoring. They also offer more possibilities for combinations depending on the need for one cabinet or two cabinets etc. etc.

 

[spatters]

I've noticed with a lot of these underground heavy metal or black metal bands they seem to go for 4x10's but I've noticed all you get in a lot of them is this boomy generic bass sound behind the guitars.

That has a lot more to do with pedals and the mix than the cabinet, unless you're talking about stage sound at a live show. Bass is recorded through a DI.

For live playing, I'm a big fan of the 2x15 over the 4x10. Two 2x10s can work, but a lot of 2x10 cabinets are constructed for minimum size and weight instead of maximum bass, particularly if they're sealed. Anyone who buys a 2x15 isn't concerned about size or weight, so they're generally tuned for maximum low end extension.

To be honest, I prefer a 2x15 over the 8x10, if your 2x15 can handle the wattage from your amp. The standard 8x10 fridge (and sealed box 2x10s, which is all the fridge is...four sealed 2x10s in one enclosure) has a big bump in the midbass that really hits you in the chest. But when you're on stage with high gain downtuned guitars, it tends to get lost in them, just like you say ("generic boomy sound"), because the guitars are hitting you there too. A good 2x15 goes lower and will help you sit under the guitars.

 

[Rnr..........4]

What about a 2x10 and a 1x15? Would that be enough to push through distorted guitars?

 

[spatters]

What about a 2x10 and a 1x15? Would that be enough to push through distorted guitars?

That can work, but you have to make sure you get an 8 ohm 2x10 and an 8 ohm 1x15.

A lot of heads don't like to push loads under 4 ohms...and if one cabinet is 8 ohms and the other is 4 ohms, you're pushing twice the power through one cabinet, which risks blowing it up and isn't using the other efficiently.

 

[Gearhead17]

I am in a Black Sabbath tribute band and use a Fearless 212 with a Mesa D800. (See photo). Also notice the speaker stand underneath it. That really helps with me hearing my bass tone. In the past, I had two beefy DNA 210's stacked vertically and I loved them! I could easily hear myself and got everything I needed at a show. The Fearless 210 is all I need at shows and if I played in a much heavier band, I would use the same cabinet.

Do you have PA support at shows? If so, get what you need to hear yourself and you are good to go. As for playing with loud guitar players, it is important for them to not crank up the low end on their pedals and heads. It's a recipe for not hearing your bass tone too well. A good way to be heard in the mix is to NOT push a ton of low end, use an overdrive pedal with clean blend, and make sure the cabinets are pointed at your ears.

You mentioned "boomy generic bass tones" and were equating that with the rig you saw on stage. Unless you know what signal the bassist in that band is sending the sound engineer, you can't make that comparison. Could be an inexperienced sound guy or the bass player's direct tone off his pedalboard is less than satisfying. 1000's of different reasons why you heard those bass tones.

 

[danbones]

I’ve played thrash and death metal through 2x15’s and 8x10’s and i honestly prefer sealed cabs with 10” speakers. i have to disagree about your bass tone sitting UNDER the guitars, because once you start running higher gain stages into a bass amp, those low lows just turn into woofy, wooly mud, and ALL the low notes between bass and guitars lose their definition. you can make it work, but you tend to have to compensate by really raising the mids and dialing back the bass or using a low pass filter. you DO want the more aggressive attack and that mid bump you get from sealed 10” speakers in order to stand out from the guitars.

my last band i played in was almost entirely between 220 and 240 bpm and i was playing out of an ampeg SVT 2x15” after selling my 8x10” a few years back. definitely would have preferred that cabinet, and wound up sending my clean tone to the house PA in order to help cut through.

if you’re going for more slow, heavy stoner doom kind of vibes where you want each note to ring out for whole measures at a time, then by all means go with a 2x15”. hell, get a sub octave pedal and go through an 18” and really rattle out the crowd’s fillings, but if you want punchy articulation through layers of distortion, i think you’ll have better luck with sealed 10s. however, if you’re playing with two guitarists that are both playing low tunings, a single 2x10 isn’t gonna compete. you’ll need at least a 4x10 to be heard over that.

 

[FugaziBomb]

That has a lot more to do with pedals and the mix than the cabinet, unless you're talking about stage sound at a live show. Bass is recorded through a DI.

For live playing, I'm a big fan of the 2x15 over the 4x10. Two 2x10s can work, but a lot of 2x10 cabinets are constructed for minimum size and weight instead of maximum bass, particularly if they're sealed. Anyone who buys a 2x15 isn't concerned about size or weight, so they're generally tuned for maximum low end extension.

To be honest, I prefer a 2x15 over the 8x10, if your 2x15 can handle the wattage from your amp. The standard 8x10 fridge (and sealed box 2x10s, which is all the fridge is...four sealed 2x10s in one enclosure) has a big bump in the midbass that really hits you in the chest. But when you're on stage with high gain downtuned guitars, it tends to get lost in them, just like you say ("generic boomy sound"), because the guitars are hitting you there too. A good 2x15 goes lower and will help you sit under the guitars.

My 8x10 Hartke XL put out noticeably more low end than my Hartke VX215, so this isn't always the case

 

[Aidenn7]

the reason.. you need 810's is the the effect of the cab kills 4 412's.. it notch's right in the mix.. when you turn it up.. just turn up the mids.. idiot sound guys.. use bass only.. Black metal is tuned down guitars.. bright clean bass.. but you can parallel.. the clean with overdive.. so for a show it's 3 sounds at one clean bass high & lower mids.. mud bottom bass.. and guitar overdive treble.. or just do a di and a tube guitar amp in parallel..

 

[Element Zero]

Mesa 215 Subway or 2 115 Subway cabs would more than foot the bill.

 

[treyydogg]

i totally DISAGREE and just like I have every time i see a similar thread on TB... these are one of the few discussions I cant ignore ands feel obligated to weigh in on. Not that I seek to argue or even point proverbial fingers but the tones you perceive as boomy or what ever you described them as are surely not the tone a bass player using any 8x10 cab intends to put out there , on the contrary if they have made the effort to lug a monolithic beast of a bass rig especially to a club gig then they surely care what sounds they are gfoing to put out there for the paying customers. Its my strong opinion that what you are describing is an issue that is directly related to the sound mans attitude towards bass players who DO make the extra effort to lug a larger rig to shows so that its possible to really lock in the pocket with their drummer. If you dont think this is true then you have never been on stage with an inadeqite bass rig and trying to replicate the groove you as well as your band mate enjoy and depend on, which the absence of will make the entire band sound unprofessional and green . Then there are the people who argue well what about inner ear .... well ive NEVER been able to really catch the good groove live with ear monitors and frankly i dont car if i ever have to use mine again because in my opinion and to me the create sterility and loss of the "soul" that i know alot of heavy metal ... heavy rock guys and gals will not even get that last reference but the pocket or groove are just tags attached by different folk which can all be encapsulated by the term "soul" because even a loud ass bashing metal band if they have the right or a good rhythm section there music will have soul to it or '''feel" to it and that is just the facts but if these players cant communicate on stage , and im not talking eye contact or verbally , im talking about with their instruments ... the language we all strive to master ... the music ... if its heavy rock n roll then it must be felt as well as heard to truely reach out an inspire and hold a crowds attention . this is only my opinion and lile ashole everybody has one !

 

[HardNHeavy]

have only used 8x10, 2x15's during my punk/metal/doom/gore days.....but that got old and heavy or i did..haha, finally went with 4x12's, which has always been more than enuf for me nowadays. Any larger stage i'd go DI or get another matching cab

 

[Nephilymbass]

I've noticed with a lot of these underground heavy metal or black metal bands they seem to go for 4x10's but I've noticed all you get in a lot of them is this boomy generic bass sound behind the guitars. I personally see (2) 2x10's more than enough and give you a bit more definition allowing you to stand out more as a bass player. Anyone agree?

Of course an Ampeg 6x10 or 8x10 would be killer but I'm not no where close to getting in a band like AC/DC stadium levels to spend that kind of money. For a mid sized festival I guess a 4x10 would be required.

I play heavy stuff and my rig has shrunk a lot over the years. From 2000-2010 my live rig included an ampeg 810. The band was stupid loud. Then the whole ampless/in ear trend started becoming more common as stuff like the fractal and kemper stuff came along. So I got rid of the 810 and switched to a ampeg 410he and 15 and would often only use one cab. Got tired of bringing heavy cabs only for soundguys to ask me to turn down every gig. These days all I use is a Mesa subway 115. Guitarist uses a fractal so he can get those cranked amp sounds at more reasonable levels these days. Really just depends on who you play with though. Some guitarist are still stuck in the 80s and using loud 100w tube heads and 412 guitar cabs and stuff. If they use a fractal, kemper, quad cortex, or helix, they have no reason to play ridiculously loud and you shouldn’t need a very loud rig because you don’t have to compete with them. But I guess it also matter what kind of gigs you play. I always try to avoid gigs that don’t have good PA support. With really good pa support ive even played gigs just running a sans amp or darkglass pedal pre direct.

410s are still good cabs. They really arent that different than 210 cabs. A bit louder and a little more boxy sounding. What the cab sounds like really doesn’t matter that much though If you run xlr out of your head or use a Di for the PA. In that case the cab is essentially just a stage monitor.

 

[mmon77]

I don't think cabs matter as much as eq. It's all about making room from the bass and guitars so that they don't fight with each other and turn into mud. Some bands are very good at this (King's X comes to mind), and many others are not.

Most modern metal, for example has very prominent bass, and down-tuned guitars. If you listen to isolated tracks, you'll find that the guitar has a very sharp cutoff below a certain frequency, and that's where the bass "lives". If you listen to either by itself, it sounds pretty bad, but it works in a mix.

 

[GreyBeard]

That has more to do with how the bass (and other instruments) is eq’ed than the cab.
With all the thick distortion and overlapping frequencies from the guitars, the bass has to be able to find its space in the mix to cut through and be heard

Yes, often there is little room between the kick drum and the distorted guitar for the bass. It has been my experience that the people who mix FOH for heavy metal tend to mix the bass as a sub-sonic rumble and don't care about any sort of definition. You have to play like Geddy to get any respect in their realm.

 

[hardtop]

I've noticed with a lot of these underground heavy metal or black metal bands they seem to go for 4x10's but I've noticed all you get in a lot of them is this boomy generic bass sound behind the guitars. I personally see (2) 2x10's more than enough and give you a bit more definition allowing you to stand out more as a bass player. Anyone agree?

Of course an Ampeg 6x10 or 8x10 would be killer but I'm not no where close to getting in a band like AC/DC stadium levels to spend that kind of money. For a mid sized festival I guess a 4x10 would be required.

I've played a lot of mid-sized metal festivals with black and death metal bands, and 8x10is definitely the standard. In smaller venues or bigger clubs a 4x10 seems to be suitable, but even most club backlines are 8x10 in this genre.

 

[DingwallDingus]

Don't use physical cabs much but I agree about the boominess thing. Was using Ampeg SVX, specifically the 8x10 model but always found 100% wet too undefined.

Since then the nice folks in the Genzler club hooked me up with an IR of the Genzler Bass Array cabinet and awesome and defined but still deep on 100% wet. I use the direct out with an amp head with my pedal rig in front, really happy with the tones I've been getting.

 

[JohnnyChatter]

I feel like it all really depends on the cabs... I don’t look at speaker size or quantity but how they sound because they can all be tuned different. When I see people use 2 2x10 cabs I just assume they are looking for a more portable 4x10. If you are hearing a boring stereotypical metal boomy bass that is the sound they are going for. Also most sound guys don’t give a flip about bass and it shows. Same goes for more than half the recording engineers I have ever worked with. To them bass is meant to be felt and not heard. There is the pleasant exceptions but most metal bass players I’m friends with like those tones or do it to please there guitar player. I love me some metal but it’s hard for a bass player to really shine in that genre. Its not impossible just hard.