Help Me Figure out an Extension Cab

[Why Nautilus‽]

Hey folks,

Having some heavily peaking low end with my Boss Katana 210 amp. I have tried reducing the bass overall, but I feel like that causes me to lose some tone and oomph.

Looking for something that I can use as an extension cab for lower (some extreme low) tunings.

The lowest tuning I currently use is F Standard (full octave below first fret). So approaching that 20hz range.

My amp is 300 watts, with a min 4 ohm speaker out.

Ideally, I’d love something cost effective but clear. I run a fairly clean tone overall with minimal distortion and effects minus eq and the occasional fuzz.

Should I be looking at 2x10 to bring my total speakers to 4x10? Or should I look for 1x15, 4x10, 2x12 etc.

Ideally, max budget of $700.

Appreciate the insight as always.

 

[Redbrangus]

Are you using a low-pass filter?

Also, I wouldn't expect any bass amp to have much usable response down to 20Hz -- I really can't imagine this one would. Trying to make something happen down there in the near-subsonic region just makes everything else going through the same speaker system sound worse, IMHO.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

Are you using a low-pass filter?

Also, I wouldn't expect any bass amp to have much usable response down to 20Hz -- I really can't imagine this one would. Trying to make something happen down there in the near-subsonic region just makes everything else going through the same speaker system sound worse, IMHO.

I have a low pass as part of my boss’ signal chain, yeah

 

[Stylee Mousse]

I’d try a powered PA subwoofer. High pass the boss amp a like 200hz, let the sub do everything below that.

It would be loud. I’m just guessing that you aren’t in a cocktail jazz band, right?

 

[Redbrangus]

I’d try a powered PA subwoofer. High pass the boss amp a like 200hz, let the sub do everything below that.

I tend to agree with this in concept -- it would offer a route to good LF extension. I'd choose a lower crossover point, like maybe 100-150Hz, but getting that LF information out of the Katana is bound to help. And I'm not sure how one would accomplish the signal routing, getting a full-range signal to the sub while sending the high-passed signal through the Katana. Maybe the sub signal could be derived from the effects send and the high-passed signal from the sub's crossover brought back into the effects return or power amp input.

As far as using an extension cab goes, does the Katana even have the capability to drive an extension speaker? I thought the external speaker output interrupted and replaced the internal speaker. Or is that your intent, OP?

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

I’d try a powered PA subwoofer. High pass the boss amp a like 200hz, let the sub do everything below that.

It would be loud. I’m just guessing that you aren’t in a cocktail jazz band, right?

This is an interesting idea. I’ll look into it.

And I do play with a cocktail jazz band, but that’s correct, this arrangement is more for a metal band.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

As far as using an extension cab goes, does the Katana even have the capability to drive an extension speaker? I thought the external speaker output interrupted and replaced the internal speaker. Or is that your intent, OP?

I am earnestly not aware of the capabilities of the amp in regards to external speakers. I will have to look into that.

 

[agedhorse]

I think you have the wrong tool for what you are trying to accomplish. I don't think you know (yet) how hard (and expensive) it will be to do it either.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

There's a good reason why us bassists haul 100's of watts of power to keep up with guitarists' 30W amps. Lower frequencies demand lots more power to generate comparable spl's. 20 Hz? That's gonna need a lotta lotta juice, and a speaker that can handle both the frequency and the power. Decades ago I did a holiday show at the Kennedy Center. Their "portable" organ had a dedicated 400W amp and 32" speaker (!) for the lowest pedal note. One note! Technology may have improved since then but physics is still physics!

The Bar Band Bassman

 

[Stylee Mousse]

I'm going to guess that, like the low E on a standard tuned bass the fundamental of the octave down (nearly) note will never reproduce, rather the harmonics of it might. No MI rig is going close to 20, Though a decent powered 18 sub will do 40hz.

However, as agedhorse points out - even this solution is expensive and heavy.

I'm trying to imagine a bass player in a loud band getting by with a 165 watt 210 combo, let alone one that massively down tunes. Mr. Nautilus, how do you work this out?

 

[bherman]

Hey folks,

Having some heavily peaking low end with my Boss Katana 210 amp. I have tried reducing the bass overall, but I feel like that causes me to lose some tone and oomph.

Looking for something that I can use as an extension cab for lower (some extreme low) tunings.

The lowest tuning I currently use is F Standard (full octave below first fret). So approaching that 20hz range.

My amp is 300 watts, with a min 4 ohm speaker out.

Ideally, I’d love something cost effective but clear. I run a fairly clean tone overall with minimal distortion and effects minus eq and the occasional fuzz.

Should I be looking at 2x10 to bring my total speakers to 4x10? Or should I look for 1x15, 4x10, 2x12 etc.

Ideally, max budget of $700.

Appreciate the insight as always.

Honestly, I think that your problem is your choice of amp. It's a low to mid-level combo, probably ok for average bass playing in a typical band, but not the deep extensions that you are looking to get out of it. Even most high-end rigs would have trouble with handling that cleanly - although I'd be curious to see how the strings handle that much detuning. My take on this is that adding an extension speaker to the amp that you have is not going to get you what you are looking for. @agedhorse is one of the resident experts on this forum, and if he flags it as difficult and expensive to do what you are trying to do, you can take that to the bank.

Honest question, not being snarky, just curious - what do you play that requires a low F below E?? I can't imagine that even being audible.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

I think you have the wrong tool for what you are trying to accomplish. I don't think you know (yet) how hard (and expensive) it will be to do it either.

I am open to suggestions and directions as to what would accomplish this, even if it meant starting from scratch so to speak.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

I'm going to guess that, like the low E on a standard tuned bass the fundamental of the octave down (nearly) note will never reproduce, rather the harmonics of it might. No MI rig is going close to 20, Though a decent powered 18 sub will do 40hz.

However, as agedhorse points out - even this solution is expensive and heavy.

I'm trying to imagine a bass player in a loud band getting by with a 165 watt 210 combo, let alone one that massively down tunes. Mr. Nautilus, how do you work this out?

To answer the second half of your response: I will run my combo through the FOH in most venues. Either by mic or by DI.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

Honest question, not being snarky, just curious - what do you play that requires a low F below E?? I can't imagine that even being audible.

Depends on the setting I’m using the bass in. I play in a cover band where I use the F to cover the sub bass frequencies common in hip-hop/modern pop songs.

In my metal band, we play between F standard and Drop G tunings. Many modern metal bands (metalcore being more common than some others) are utilizing these lower tunings with seemingly few issues of clarity. Many run with heavily distorted or mid-boosted instruments but I’ve heard a fair amount with clean mixing as well.

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

Depends on the setting I’m using the bass in. I play in a cover band where I use the F to cover the sub bass frequencies common in hip-hop/modern pop songs.

In my metal band, we play between F standard and Drop G tunings. Many modern metal bands (metalcore being more common than some others) are utilizing these lower tunings with seemingly few issues of clarity. Many run with heavily distorted or mid-boosted instruments but I’ve heard a fair amount with clean mixing as well.

Setting in which I am using the bass. Excuse my grammar.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Yes, a powered sub is about all that will get you close to hearing 20 Hz, and I really doubt you will actually “hear” it, but you will probably feel it better.

Boss doesn’t make it all that clear as to what the internal speaker impedance is. I see the speaker jack on the back of the amp says “min 4 ohm”, which leads me to think that might be a switching jack that will disconnect the internal speaker when something is plugged in. If not, the amp will have to be capable of handling less than a 4 ohm load, because if you plug in a 4 ohm cabinet and the internal speaker stays active and is in parallel with a 4 ohm load, the combined impedance will be less than 4 ohms.

The down side, a powered sub that has its own WI-FI or Bluetooth controlled EQ & crossover will likely exceed your budget…..by about triple…

 

[Why Nautilus‽]

Yes, a powered sub is about all that will get you close to hearing 20 Hz, and I really doubt you will actually “hear” it, but you will probably feel it better.

Boss doesn’t make it all that clear as to what the internal speaker impedance is. I see the speaker jack on the back of the amp says “min 4 ohm”, which leads me to think that might be a switching jack that will disconnect the internal speaker when something is plugged in. If not, the amp will have to be capable of handling less than a 4 ohm load, because if you plug in a 4 ohm cabinet and the internal speaker stays active and is in parallel with a 4 ohm load, the combined impedance will be less than 4 ohms.

The down side, a powered sub that has its own WI-FI or Bluetooth controlled EQ & crossover will likely exceed your budget…..by about triple…

Thank you for the answer there. Sounds like in that case it’d be better/easier to go the head&cab route.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes, a powered sub is about all that will get you close to hearing 20 Hz, and I really doubt you will actually “hear” it, but you will probably feel it better.

Boss doesn’t make it all that clear as to what the internal speaker impedance is. I see the speaker jack on the back of the amp says “min 4 ohm”, which leads me to think that might be a switching jack that will disconnect the internal speaker when something is plugged in. If not, the amp will have to be capable of handling less than a 4 ohm load, because if you plug in a 4 ohm cabinet and the internal speaker stays active and is in parallel with a 4 ohm load, the combined impedance will be less than 4 ohms.

The down side, a powered sub that has its own WI-FI or Bluetooth controlled EQ & crossover will likely exceed your budget…..by about triple…

Wi-Fi and Bluetooth won't cut it, way too much latency.

 

[agedhorse]

I am open to suggestions and directions as to what would accomplish this, even if it meant starting from scratch so to speak.

The easy solution, which will get you down to about 30Hz (at -10dB) and 39Hz (at -3dB) is a JBL SRX-928 plus a JBL PRX-812 all self powered and biamped, plus the preamp of your choice (must be able to drive full +4dBu balanced line level)

This will set you back about $6-7k and it still won't come close to 20Hz. To get to -3dB at 20Hz will take about 4 or 5 times this amount, at say 130dB/1M

Now do you have a better appreciation for why it's so difficult?

 

[Marko 1]

Many modern metal bands (metalcore being more common than some others) are utilizing these lower tunings with seemingly few issues of clarity. Many run with heavily distorted or mid-boosted instruments but I’ve heard a fair amount with clean mixing as well.

What rigs are they playing through?