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Help me understand "Tainted Love"

Personally I don't give a fig leaf for the theory, if it sounds good to me I like it. But the OP wanted to know "why" it's done. Whether it fits a particular theory, and if so which, or if it's just that it's one of those rule benders that work as an anomaly until some clever muso works out the theory.

I've always seen pop music as Being where someone hits various chords waiting for the "right" one to sound out...
 
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Discussions including terms like "diatonic" and "theory" are not limited to "traditional" or "classical theory"(whatever those are... is it like saying "let's discuss chemistry, but only using terms known by alchemists 300 years ago"?).
We commonly use the term "theory" but what we're really talking about is the study and vocabulary of music. Any music. Whether it follows some very basic rules or must be described in a more complex way. Maybe we should call it the musical science? Because the really interesting this about it is that we can gain new knowledge from the process of investigating, observing, sharing and, not least, testing. You can study a random noise generator in this way. It may not be classical music, but that doesn't make it unstudyable.

So... responses like "You cannot use theory to analyze it" says one of two things about you and nothing about the music. Those are:
1) You do not wish to analyse it at all. That's fine. But I have no interest in golf. Should I go post on golf boards about how much interest I lack in golf?
or
2) You have some separate way of analyzing it. If this is the case, please share. It is still music theory. We can learn something together. But I have a feeling that to have an effective conversation, we'll have to first learn the common language.

I recognize that you don't have to formally study music to write or appreciate music, You don't have to have the vocabulary. However, if you've heard music, and -- n turn -- created music, you are -- relatively primitively but not necessarily less effectively -- practicing the musical science I described above. Despite your best anti-intellectual efforts, you have musical theory.

/rant

This hits the nail on the head. "Classical" theory and "Jazz" theory aren't two separate theories, just different points of view regarding the same "science". In fact, until things start to get very complex, they are virtually indistinguishable. Whichever you choose to practise, you are learning the terminology for the effects created when certain notes and harmonies interact, which is incredibly important for replicating the effects in your own songwriting. Analyse, understand, utilise.

The OP asked an intelligent question, looking to acquire some knowledge about the how and why of a particular bit of songwriting, and most of the replies have explained, in whole or in part, what's going on; the raised third, the resolution, the musical/emotional effect it has etc etc. This is great. But it's even better if you explain why it works too, and what it's called. This way you can express your ideas with other musicians efficiently and effectively. If you decide you want to create a certain emotion in your writing, great, you know exactly how to do so. No guesswork involved. The amount of time saved is well worth the effort of learning these things. A little knowledge can go a long way.

It's a lot easier to NOT use classical theory to try and analyze this. Use commercial (or jazz) concepts and get away from diatonic reasoning. It takes like 15 more steps to explain a chord progression if you think of it in classical terms. I know what a picardy third is, but I don't use that term when playing commercial music. Also, "borrowed chord from the parallel major"???? I get that, but we aren't talking about Mozart here. It's Soft Cell, and it's commercial music. There are easier ways to explain songs like this with music theory. Using classical terminology isn't one of them.

Really it doesn't matter what terms you use though. it is what it is. Mozart or Soft Cell, the usage and effect is identical. And in this case it took only two words to explain the progression: picardy third (classical) / parallel major (jazz). If you take the time to learn the theory, it doesn't make things more complicated, rather it becomes so much simpler. What initially seems like witchcraft becomes as clear as day. I really can't recommend enough, to every and any musician of any ability level, learning some theory, jazz, classical, or better yet both. It's one of the best decisions I have ever made as a musician, and will affect, enhance, and enrich every part of your playing, songwriting, and enjoyment of music.
 
It's a lot easier to NOT use classical theory to try and analyze this. Use commercial (or jazz) concepts and get away from diatonic reasoning. It takes like 15 more steps to explain a chord progression if you think of it in classical terms. I know what a picardy third is, but I don't use that term when playing commercial music. Also, "borrowed chord from the parallel major"???? I get that, but we aren't talking about Mozart here. It's Soft Cell, and it's commercial music. There are easier ways to explain songs like this with music theory. Using classical terminology isn't one of them.

I barely know music theory and find it's more alphabet soup than useful. But, I'm not sure you could have picked a worse context to make that statement.

The OP and his band worked out the chord progression for the song and noticed that the song as performed by Imelda May (and her band) would fit perfectly in the key of Amin if not for the Amaj chord used briefly at the end of verse into start of chorus. He then asks two questions.

"So, maybe a key change?" To which the answer is so easy even I am not confused by it: no key change, just a chord borrowed from parallel major key. My take away from this is that the keys in the circle of fifths do not perfectly and neatly contain all possible chord progressions. I'm not confused by that. I've long suspected that music theory was a little weird and fabricated. But, this instance is far from the most confusing music theory I have encountered. Borrowing is not confusing to me.

The second question asked was, "So can anyone help me understand why this works?" The answer to that has nothing to do with keys, the subject of the first question, and it's also easy. It works because the singer is singing a major 3rd at that point of the song. If the guitarist plays Amin, it'll be dissonant. I guess dissonance is not the sound that best accompanies the meaning of the lyrics or performance in this instance. I'm sure someone could re-arrange the song to make it a mass of dissonance. Imelda May chose not to. I guess that considereing the majority of the song is present miserable, she wanted the one reference to the past to be more positive. Maybe the song is about bi-polar infatuation.
 
One of the things that bugs me about music theory is how so many people can disagree on what should be cut & dried & black & white. It almost never is though. When I was learning theory I would post questions about why things were the way they were on a guitar FB page & within about a dozen posts they'd be fighting over who was right. They could all be right for all I know, but it really put me off that something could be construed in so many different ways.
 
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Discussions including terms like "diatonic" and "theory" are not limited to "traditional" or "classical theory"(whatever those are... is it like saying "let's discuss chemistry, but only using terms known by alchemists 300 years ago"?).
We commonly use the term "theory" but what we're really talking about is the study and vocabulary of music. Any music. Whether it follows some very basic rules or must be described in a more complex way. Maybe we should call it the musical science? Because the really interesting this about it is that we can gain new knowledge from the process of investigating, observing, sharing and, not least, testing. You can study a random noise generator in this way. It may not be classical music, but that doesn't make it unstudyable.

So... responses like "You cannot use theory to analyze it" says one of two things about you and nothing about the music. Those are:
1) You do not wish to analyse it at all. That's fine. But I have no interest in golf. Should I go post on golf boards about how much interest I lack in golf?
or
2) You have some separate way of analyzing it. If this is the case, please share. It is still music theory. We can learn something together. But I have a feeling that to have an effective conversation, we'll have to first learn the common language.

I recognize that you don't have to formally study music to write or appreciate music, You don't have to have the vocabulary. However, if you've heard music, and -- n turn -- created music, you are -- relatively primitively but not necessarily less effectively -- practicing the musical science I described above. Despite your best anti-intellectual efforts, you have musical theory.

/rant

The theory was already explained to you in terms of borrowed or accidental notes. Why it works was also described, but, I'll take another stab at it:

What happens in Tainted Love is Ed Cobb threw in an accidental to shift the melody away from sounding melancholy and toward a more hopeful / powerful resolution. Without that shift, the melody would remain sounding a bit on the morose / "woe is me" side for the whole tune. Listeners naturally want weakness and uncertainty to be followed (resolved) by strength and conviction. That is the "resolution" that has been described to you throughout this thread. Without that type of resolution, we listeners may lose interest and the song would most likely flop. That is true throughout all of music history.

I agree that perhaps the lack of a common language is leading to unnecessary friction here. And it is not the case that I lack a traditional theory vocabulary.

Pop songwriters use a different language when discussing what you are trying to force into a theory discussion. So, just for a moment, open your mind to another language that may help explain your query. What Cobb was developing there is called the hook. If you are unfamiliar, the hook is meant to grab and hold the listener's interest. The hook is probably the most important feature of pop songwriting formula. It is responsible for selling literally billions and billions of records, but I doubt you will find the word "hook" in a conversation about theory. It would, however, be heard dozens of times a day at the Brill Building. One of the most common hooks in popular music is the minor to major shift, which happens only briefly in Tainted Love, but serves to snap us out of feeling sorry for the singer. As a result, when the melody returns to minor, it sounds more confident than before. A bit sassy. That is the hook. Without that shift, the tune would fizzle out.

Other terms associated with pop songwriting that will also not likely be found in a theory discussion: turn around, back beat, middle eight, hit, stab, climb, release, breakdown, vamp, etc... All of which can be explained in terms of theory, I suppose, but they are just little bits of songwriting formula meant to sell records. And a term like "hook" is no more or less intellectually valid than a term like "picardy third".

So, in my best of best anti-intellectual efforts, it works because it is part of the hook.

Also, music theory is not a science. Parts of it are based on science, but fails in too many aspects to be regarded as one. Same goes with linguistics.
 
One of the things that bugs me about music theory is how so many people can disagree on what should be cut & dried & black & white. It almost never is though. When I was learning theory I would post questions about why things were the way they were on a guitar FB page & within about a dozen posts they'd be fighting over who was right. They could all be right for all I know, but it really put me off that something could be construed in so many different ways.

In college, I studied with a professor who edited more than one college-level theory textbook and he spoke sometimes of the debates about what should be printed in the books. Errors and misconceptions abound on TB threads which explains why arguments start here, but even high-level tenured professors argue about certain points. Don't get them started on whether a dyad is a chord or not. There are subjective things when it comes to art, and as mentioned before, rules can be bent and broken. Theory often explains a lot of it, but not all.

I know enough theory to work in lots of working bands effectively, as well as teach. There's a certain amount of accepted fact which morphs into interpretation quickly and easily. This is where the black and white aspect disappears. I try to avoid that at a certain point, and just play. Willful ignorance of theory isn't always the best path, but guys who take theory as infallible gospel aren't on the best path either , and their playing usually sounds like it.
 
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The theory was already explained to you in terms of borrowed or accidental notes. Why it works was also described, but, I'll take another stab at it:

What happens in Tainted Love is Ed Cobb threw in an accidental to shift the melody away from sounding melancholy and toward a more hopeful / powerful resolution. Without that shift, the melody would remain sounding a bit on the morose / "woe is me" side for the whole tune. Listeners naturally want weakness and uncertainty to be followed (resolved) by strength and conviction. That is the "resolution" that has been described to you throughout this thread. Without that type of resolution, we listeners may lose interest and the song would most likely flop. That is true throughout all of music history.

I agree that perhaps the lack of a common language is leading to unnecessary friction here. And it is not the case that I lack a traditional theory vocabulary.

Pop songwriters use a different language when discussing what you are trying to force into a theory discussion. So, just for a moment, open your mind to another language that may help explain your query. What Cobb was developing there is called the hook. If you are unfamiliar, the hook is meant to grab and hold the listener's interest. The hook is probably the most important feature of pop songwriting formula. It is responsible for selling literally billions and billions of records, but I doubt you will find the word "hook" in a conversation about theory. It would, however, be heard dozens of times a day at the Brill Building. One of the most common hooks in popular music is the minor to major shift, which happens only briefly in Tainted Love, but serves to snap us out of feeling sorry for the singer. As a result, when the melody returns to minor, it sounds more confident than before. A bit sassy. That is the hook. Without that shift, the tune would fizzle out.

Other terms associated with pop songwriting that will also not likely be found in a theory discussion: turn around, back beat, middle eight, hit, stab, climb, release, breakdown, vamp, etc... All of which can be explained in terms of theory, I suppose, but they are just little bits of songwriting formula meant to sell records. And a term like "hook" is no more or less intellectually valid than a term like "picardy third".

So, in my best of best anti-intellectual efforts, it works because it is part of the hook.

Also, music theory is not a science. Parts of it are based on science, but fails in too many aspects to be regarded as one. Same goes with linguistics.

I'm curious about something. Has anyone attempted to take those music writing techniques and apply them to atonal music? I don't know enough theory to know if that's a silly question or not. But, the answer could open up another perspective.
 
I'm curious about something. Has anyone attempted to take those music writing techniques and apply them to atonal music? I don't know enough theory to know if that's a silly question or not. But, the answer could open up another perspective.

I'll likely regret posting this because it falls under labels and interpretation of what you label something, which lots of people seem to deem more important than the music itself, but here I go:

I'm not a heavy orchestration/composition guy at all, but I have a friend that academically studied composition seriously, focusing on atonal composers, and was always a big Beatles fan as well. He always spoke of the stuff he was working on in that tradition with "rock" songwriting terms and was always concerned about emotional impact and what the piece was "about". I know he's not the only one who functions in that manner, so it has been thought about and done, at least in the traditions of European Art Music.

Atonal rock music with standard songwriting structure has been around a long time. Many types of "Noise Rock" could fall under that umbrella. An act like Sonic Youth plays highly dissonant and outside stuff, but there is standard structure to it and they do it well.
 
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I'll likely regret posting this because it falls under labels and interpretation of what you label something, which lots of people seem to deem more important than the music itself, but here I go:

I'm not a heavy orchestration/composition guy at all, but I have a friend that academically studied composition seriously, focusing on atonal composers, and was always a big Beatles fan as well. He always spoke of the stuff he was working on in that tradition with "rock" songwriting terms and was always concerned about emotional impact and what the piece was "about". I know he's not the only one who functions in that manner, so it has been thought about and done, at least in there traditions of European Art Music.

Atonal rock music with standard songwriting structure has been around a long time. Any type of "Noise Rock"could fall under that umbrella. An act like Sonic Youth plays highly dissonant and outside stuff, but there is standard structure to it and they do it well.

Thanks for the pointers. I'll have to look into that some more. I was never a Sonic Youth fan but I'll have to give another listen.
 
I'm curious about something. Has anyone attempted to take those music writing techniques and apply them to atonal music? I don't know enough theory to know if that's a silly question or not. But, the answer could open up another perspective.
Absolutely they have. Atonal music is all about accidentals.
 
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The idea of mixing Major and Minor chords crops up all over the place...

Comfortably Numb - Pink Floyd
Miles and Miles - The Who
Space Oddity - David Bowie (Bowie uses the idea a lot)

It's just another construct, like the cadence, that creates a particular feel in the music. If you want to compare it to an old (pre 19th century) classical construct, think about the 'sweet' and 'resolving' character of the Picardy Third, but used at the end of a section (in this case the verse) rather than the end of the piece.
 
One of the problems is trying to think about a pop song in terms of the key in which it is written. Most pop songs, especially these soul type songs are based on 7th chords.
You'll find blues jazz and soul songs with all 7th chords.
Think how many 12 bar, 3 chord songs with a I-IV-V progression you can play.
It is impossible to have 3 major chords with flat 7ths in one key.
We may talk about "this blues in E", but if we use E7, A7 B7, then you are not actually in E.

The whole art of blues soloing using the minor pentatonic over a major chord progression should alert you to the fact that major/minor and key nomenclature is merely a rough guide, not a watertight rule.

If it sounds good....
 
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Hey! We are famous: Want to get progressively angrier as you read a thread? | MarkWeinGuitarLessons.com

Our notorious? Whatever. It's pretty awesome how many people or perhaps just i) have upset
Nice job! I'm down with upsetting insecure, thin-skinned babies. That said, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want to drive by your house in the middle of the night, blast one of those nuclear meltdown alarms, and shout through a megaphone, "IT'S 'TAINTED FREAKING LOVE!'"

:bag:
 
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The holier than thou brigade revelling in ignorance....

I understand theory as something someone else understands and music as something I like. Every now and then I wish I understood why I like something, but I'm a poor player so I'm more interested in how to play it than why it's played that way.

But I'm still going to read the threads, no harm in learning.

(big wave to the guys reading this so they can complain about it elsewhere, MWAH)
 
I'm curious about something. Has anyone attempted to take those music writing techniques and apply them to atonal music? I don't know enough theory to know if that's a silly question or not. But, the answer could open up another perspective.

Not a silly question at all.

@20db pad answered this well with Sonic Youth.

Ornette Coleman comes to mind on the jazz side. He would compose within somewhat traditional structures, but avoid tonal centers. Coleman and Sun Ra were big influences on Sonic Youth and many others in the "rock" world.

If you are up for more of a challenge this morning, it could be argued that this has a familiar songwriting structure to it as well:

 
Hey! We are famous: Want to get progressively angrier as you read a thread? | MarkWeinGuitarLessons.com

Our notorious? Whatever. It's pretty awesome how many people or perhaps just i) have upset

shaging guitar lessons. Mine were a complete waste of time, a scam, just a bunch of notation. This is the best music lesson I ever had, it makes sense to me because I can hear it, see it, and feel it:


I want to hear as little use of notes as possible. People often confuse the notes for the tones they represent and it's because of crap music lessons like the ones I had when I was a kid. People do not confuse letters for the words they represent because writing is learned after speaking. In my opinion, it should be the same for music, intervals over notes as much as possible. In fact, I'd get rid of keys if I could, and I will, for myself, if possible, when I get around to modes, assuming my understanding is correct.
 
Not a silly question at all.

@20db pad answered this well with Sonic Youth.

Ornette Coleman comes to mind on the jazz side. He would compose within somewhat traditional structures, but avoid tonal centers. Coleman and Sun Ra were big influences on Sonic Youth and many others in the "rock" world.

If you are up for more of a challenge this morning, it could be argued that this has a familiar songwriting structure to it as well:




Just when I thought that my ear was developing because Ask The Ages (Sonny Sharrock) was starting to sound ... consistent, this comes along. I'm deaf again, lol.