Double Bass Help settle a bet!

[HolmeBass]

Guys, would you include solo pieces as well? Dragonetti etc. What about the Tubin and Schuller Concertos..??

That seems less likely to me. Why would you want the soloist to have to sight read incredibly complex material like that? I can't imagine a scenario where that would be required. At rehearsal, on the initial read-through, I think people would give him a break.

This thread is some good readin' right here. Keep it goin boys.

And yes, anyone who can't sight read Bottesini's Tarantella is a hack who should give up immediately. On the scale of bass grievances, it is on par with not using an amp.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I disagree that it's irrelevant,

I was just pointing out that there was a specific question asked here, which seems to have been ignored in some posts.

 

[Nathan Parker]

I was just pointing out that there was a specific question asked here, which seems to have been ignored in some posts.

This thread has evolved to new and exciting things. Just embrace it.

If you really need an answer, it is no. There is untold plethora of professional double bass players who can't read anything put in front of them. A broad question deserves a broad answer.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I was just pointing out that there was a specific question asked here, which seems to have been ignored in some posts.

I agree but it seems that we've been attributing too high of a threshold to being a professional. I think the OP might be looking for a narrower definition... being a master of the instrument is not the same as being a pro.
There are plenty of professionals who aren't that good and plenty of amateurs who are.

-Jeff

 

[Jeff Kissell]

This thread has evolved to new and exciting things. Just embrace it.

If you really need an answer, it is no. There is untold plethora of professional double bass players who can't read anything put in front of them. A broad question deserves a broad answer.

Fan the flames Mr. Bellows!!

 

[Nathan Parker]

Fan the flames Mr. Bellows!!

I just do what the voices in my head tell me to do.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

I just do what the voices in my head tell me to do.

yeah but can those voices sight read on the bandstand?

 

[Nathan Parker]

yeah but can those voices sight read on the bandstand?

Sadly no. I guess I'm out of the club.

 

[Tom Lane]

It kind of makes sense that *most* pros can sight-read because being able to read increases your income opportunities.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

You're gonna need your mad reading skilz if you don't have your **** memorized.



No really, most of my mentors that I like to emulate - they do their best not to have a chart in front of them when they're working. It's a great skill to have but I'm not entirely convinced that super accurate sight reading skills is a top priority. As pointed out before, if you're working in the pit or playing jingles, it certainly is.

 

[Tom Lane]

You're gonna need your mad reading skilz if you don't have your **** memorized.

How are you going to memorize original charts? Tunes with specified intros, fills, and endings? No pre-arranged nor big band charts. Reading is just a skill. It's undeniably a useful skill for a pro to have. That doesn't mean that all pros will learn to sight-read, just that most will be better off if they do.
I agree that it's best to work without a chart when possible, but the list of pros I know that read well is endless. How many can you name that can't read?
As for priority, I also don't think it's at the top . For jazz, great ears is probably first, followed by good chart-reading skills, with dot-reading last. Personally, I suck at sight-reading, but it's on my list of skills to acquire.
I think the pros can do it all.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

How are you going to memorize original charts? Tunes with specified intros, fills, and endings?

This is maybe a difference between the US and UK (Possibly Europe as well) that we have talked about before.

So I can go to a whole year's worth of Jazz gigs and never hear a standard - it's all original tunes written by the band members, who give out charts, often seconds before the tune is called!

I saw the Tenor player, Bobby Wellins do this with his quartet - he reached inside a satchel and pulled out a couple of sheets of music and plonked them in front of the pianist/bassist, then launched into the first notes of an original ballad he had written, before they had a chance to even glance at them!

He played a very concise solo, then walked off stage to leave the band , looking a bit red and flustered, to get on with the tune.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

This thread has evolved to new and exciting things. Just embrace it.

I don't see how bringing Pino Palladino into it, is "new and exciting" - it's just irrelevant.

If you really need an answer, it is no. There is untold plethora of professional double bass players who can't read anything put in front of them. A broad question deserves a broad answer.

I think it depends on where you are - talking about the UK, I must say that I have never met any Jazz pro here who can't read and all those I have seen on the stand can read whatever is put in front of them!

In the US you might be able to make a living without being able to read, but all those who I have talked to here, say you couldn't survive on the UK scene without being a consummate sight reader.

 

[oliebrice]

you couldn't survive on the UK scene without being a consummate sight reader.

I have to disagree with this. I know at least one fantastic, professional UK jazz musician who doesn't read at all, and there are several who are not great readers. I'm an ok-ish sight reader, definitely not great, and playing has been my profession for the bast 8 years or so. Obviously if you're a big band player or studio player it's essential, and it's always going to be a useful skill, but definitely not impossible to work with reading

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Hi Olie - I was thinking of all the tutors at the Jazz Summerschool which I still go to - over the years I have talked to dozens of them and they all tell me they make their money by teaching and doing things like sessions or playing in bands where they have to read whatever is put in front of them. I have also been a regular in the audience at Brighton Jazz club for the past 10- 15 years and every Jazz group I have seen has used charts with complex original tunes.

I can't think of one top rank Jazz pro who I have met, who wasn't an excellent sight reader - some of my favourite tutors from the Jazz Summerschool :

Stan Sulzmann, Martin Speake, Julian Siegel, Steve Watts, John Paricelli, Bobby Wellins, Jason Yarde, Alex Wilson, Chris Batchelor, Dudley Phillips,Simon Purcell,Liam Noble, Pete Churchill, Nikki Iles, Paula Gardiner and many others who have all been great sight readers and have got us transcribing as students.

I'm sure there is the odd one or two who don't - who were you thinking of? But the vast majority rely on their sight reading skill to make a living.

{EDIT} PS I'm glad to hear you're making a living, playing - all the best!

 

[oliebrice]

Hi bruce,
sure, most top jazz musicians are good readers, but my point is that there are exceptions. You don't need to be a great sight reader to be able to play original, complex music - you just need the band leader to be willing to make it work.

I'm not going to name names, doesn't seem appropriate, but certainly I've played original, complex music with a fantastic jazz musician who doesn't read, and he's not the only one

 

[oliebrice]

another thought, the musician in question was depping in a band that plays some of the hardest music I've ever played, and he was absolutely nailing by memory/ear all the odd time, atonal writing which those of us who'd been in the band for 2 or 3 years were still using charts for...

 

[Nathan Parker]

I don't see how bringing Pino Palladino into it, is "new and exciting" - it's just irrelevant.



I think it depends on where you are - talking about the UK, I must say that I have never met any Jazz pro here who can't read and all those I have seen on the stand can read whatever is put in front of them!

In the US you might be able to make a living without being able to read, but all those who I have talked to here, say you couldn't survive on the UK scene without being a consummate sight reader.

Show them this.



When they fail, which they undoubtably will, since there's probably 5 people on the planet who can sight read it correctly, gently inform then that they are not true professionals because the Internet said so.

Also, are jazz musicians the only "professional" double bass players? We need to tell all those bluegrass guys that they're not pros. I leave that to you, Bruce, since you seem to have the most complete knowledge of most things.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

...I saw the Tenor player, Bobby Wellins do this with his quartet - he reached inside a satchel and pulled out a couple of sheets of music and plonked them in front of the pianist/bassist, then launched into the first notes of an original ballad he had written, before they had a chance to even glance at them!

He played a very concise solo, then walked off stage to leave the band , looking a bit red and flustered, to get on with the tune.

It sounds like Bobby don't give a sh!t 'bout his audience or his band... very unprofessional and arrogant if you ask me.


-Jeff

 

[PaulCannon]

Show them this.

View attachment 366223

When they fail, which they undoubtably will, since there's probably 5 people on the planet who can sight read it correctly, gently inform then that they are not true professionals because the Internet said so.

Weird example. When would you need to sightread a piece like that? Also, it's not that hard if you take the printed tempo or a little under that. Lots of ink on the page doesn't necessarily mean it's fast and difficult. Although the rhythmic errors (added or missing beats and bad notation) in bars 6, 22, 24, and 30 would be pretty confusing.

I was once asked by Pierre Boulez to sight read Elliot Carter at a live audition. In that case, I was in over my head. There are probably people out there who would have dominated that reading, but I'm not one of them. Yet.