Help: wired IEM mixer w/ limiter

[drpepper]

so my rig look like this
Bass>tuner>preamp>HX stomp> Sushibox neptunium XLR> FOH
sushibox neptunium 1/4” out>radial JDI>flow 8>fzone p4>IEM

also, mic>mic splitter>flow 8> fzone p4> IEM

Ideally I’d run this all from my flight case pedal board.

We all have our own sensibilities about these kinds of things.

You say that you want to move to IEMs for the benefit of your hearing and that your gigging situation is one where sound is always handled by the venues you play (and want there to be a limiter).

Maybe there's something I'm just not able to appreciate about your situation, but from my own experience, this seems like an unnecessarily convoluted solution and half-measure in search of a problem to solve.

It appears you're down this specific path because you sense that you'll want control of your vocal and bass levels in your mix, but not because you tried and found that it was a problem. Imagining myself in your position, and with the benefit of actually having gone through it, I'd hope to consider things more broadly starting with questions rather than answers.

Because you're already down the path, a first question would be, "Is there value in wresting just parts of my mix away from the sound person?" The same person who would be running your wedge is now running your ears. You can answer that question actually trying just a headphone amp. If you find that through sound check and potential adjustments, that having someone else controlling your mix doesn't work in actual practice, then the next questions are, "Why?" and, "Is just having control of my vocal and bass levels a solution?"

Does no one else in your band want to go to IEMs? What's the makeup of the group (number of vocals, instruments, e-drums?? ?)

Depending on your input needs, a fairly simple band mix (say, 3 vocal, 3 instruments, kick and snare), you could set up your own in-ear rig/split using a small mixer with enough channels to get by, like a Behringer XR12, Soundcraft Ui12 or a Mackie DL806 (discontinued but still around) and XLR y-cables (very well labeled) for not so much money, and you could fully control your mix.

That'd also offer the ability for others in your band to move to IEMs.

 

[Wasnex]

"Is there value in wresting just parts of my mix away from the sound person?"

IMHO it's about having direct control at ones fingers. Audio techs are not always competent or attentive.

It's also about having at least some ability to gain minimum control over what you need to hear most. Not every PA will have the ability to give everyone a custom mix. This approach gives you the ability to directly dial in your bass and vocals when you are sharing a mix. It basically expands the functionality of the Rolls PM351, which lot's of people seem to appreciate.

It's not something I would recommend if you consistently work with a great PA and great audio tech. It is something I would use if I worked with multiple bands and PAs of varying quality.

Would an XR18 or X32rack with a splitter snake be better. Absolutely, but it would also entail a lot more patching.

 

[confuoco]

It's not something I would recommend if you consistently work with a great PA and great audio tech. It is something I would use if I worked with multiple bands and PAs of varying quality.

This is exactly it. I do a lot of hired gun work and at bars, auditoriums, community centres, outdoors, etc with varying degrees of both sound man competency and equipment. I just want to be able to make sure I can hear the band and myself well. If FOH mix sucks I don’t want it to be because I was too loud or something.

The biggest gig I work the drummer is on a Rolls p351 and she turned me into IEMs in general. She loves hers and although I would just run the same rig I want a belt clip and I also want a limiter.

I really just want a simple mixer and honestly would prefer analog if possible because to me it’s easier (less batteries and connectivity issues). I’m trying to find out if the FZone P4 has one and if it does I’m really hoping to find a nice small analogue mixer. I run a fairly large flight case (way bigger than I need) for my pedals and if I could fit my entire IEM mixer set up on there and all I walk in with is a bass and a flight case. I’ve included a picture since we all seem so invested lol

My preamp is currently out on loan…

 

[confuoco]

We all have our own sensibilities about these kinds of things.

You say that you want to move to IEMs for the benefit of your hearing and that your gigging situation is one where sound is always handled by the venues you play (and want there to be a limiter).

Maybe there's something I'm just not able to appreciate about your situation, but from my own experience, this seems like an unnecessarily convoluted solution and half-measure in search of a problem to solve.

It appears you're down this specific path because you sense that you'll want control of your vocal and bass levels in your mix, but not because you tried and found that it was a problem. Imagining myself in your position, and with the benefit of actually having gone through it, I'd hope to consider things more broadly starting with questions rather than answers.

Because you're already down the path, a first question would be, "Is there value in wresting just parts of my mix away from the sound person?" The same person who would be running your wedge is now running your ears. You can answer that question actually trying just a headphone amp. If you find that through sound check and potential adjustments, that having someone else controlling your mix doesn't work in actual practice, then the next questions are, "Why?" and, "Is just having control of my vocal and bass levels a solution?"

Does no one else in your band want to go to IEMs? What's the makeup of the group (number of vocals, instruments, e-drums?? ?)

Depending on your input needs, a fairly simple band mix (say, 3 vocal, 3 instruments, kick and snare), you could set up your own in-ear rig/split using a small mixer with enough channels to get by, like a Behringer XR12, Soundcraft Ui12 or a Mackie DL806 (discontinued but still around) and XLR y-cables (very well labeled) for not so much money, and you could fully control your mix.

That'd also offer the ability for others in your band to move to IEMs.

Drummer/vocals is on IEMs
I bass/vocals also (obviously) want to be on them
guitar player/singer/songwriter/brains of the operation doesn’t want to be on them and she’s a big enough deal in Canada that the drummer and I aren’t pushing it.

We play originals that are sort of a modern classic rock vibe (I realize that’s an oxymoronic statement). I also play in a jazz fusion group, a math rock band, and in a group to back stage productions (mostly modern dance and circus - yes it’s wild), amongst other various rock/country/folk side gigs. I really just want a consistent-ish sound in my ears.

 

[Wasnex]

I really just want a simple mixer and honestly would prefer analog if possible

You could certainly use analog, but it will not have built-in limiting. Digital tends to have a lot more processing power, including compression on the input and outputs.

 

[pfschim]

I may be missing something here, but I use a wired IEM system with the same KZ in-ears the OP referenced (thanks @Mike Caldwell). I use a CODA dual channel heaphone amp for my setup and it definitely has an integral Limiter. The user has no control over the Limiter, but it's there.

good luck OP!

and Happy New Year to one and all!

 

[confuoco]

I may be missing something here, but I use a wired IEM system with the same KZ in-ears the OP referenced (thanks @Mike Caldwell). I use a CODA dual channel heaphone amp for my setup and it definitely has an integral Limiter. The user has no control over the Limiter, but it's there.

good luck OP!

and Happy New Year to one and all!

im being picking and want a limiter AND control over the mic and bass leveling. And preferably analog (I hate updating software) but I’m likely going to just cave to the digital Behringer in this thread.

 

[svbruch73]

Hi, a couple of things to consider if you are new to iems (And I know, some people will disagree with me on certain aspects, but those following tips will give you the best and healthiest iem experience).

1) To protect your ears accordingly get a tight seal in your ear canals with your tips or custom molds. That's the only way you can completely control what reaches your ears.

2) Always wear both earbuds. If you remove one of them, because e.g. you feel isolated (see next point), your mix and hearing protection goes out the window.

3) If you feel isolated, you could bring an ambient mic, put it on the stage directed to the audience and mix in as much signal as you like. Or get a fancy ambient solution like the inear hearmix pro, which gives you binaural mics at your ears position and a beltpack that lets you mix the ambient sound from the mics with the monitor feed from your mixer (see No. 5 below.)

4) If I counted correctly you have to deal with three vocal mics, git, bass and drums + let's say an ambient mic, right? That means with an 8-channel mixer you could have all signals.

5) If budget isn't an issue, you do this only for yourself and don't mind a bit of additional gear setup, here is what I would do:
- get the Behringer Flow 8 digital mixer (8 input channels, 2 separate stereo busses, Headphone and AUX, great FX). You won't need another headphone amp if the Flow 8 is close enough to you. It has a dedicated amplified headphone output where you can plug your iems into. If you had a hearmix pro (see No. 3 above), you would connect the headphone out of the mixer to the line in of your beltpack.
- get three mic splitters and feed the vocals into your mixer;
- split the guitar and bass (D.I.) signal and feed them also into your mixer;
- plug in your ambient mic and put a bit of sterero reverb/roomm fx on;
- a Yamaha EAD10 is a great solution to get a stereo drum mix without much hassle. A stereo mic mounted on the bassdrum hoop connected to a small processing unit with stereo output. Fancy and practical.
Mix all the signals and add fx to your liking. You can store all settings in the mixer and recall them at any gig or rehearsal. That's the beauty of digital.

6) Run your iems in stereo. With sealed ear canals and everything in mono, all sound sources are directly in the center of your head, which doesn't sound very natural and doesn't give you separation between the signals. And with all the gear mentioned above it is no problem.

7) Do not run your mix too loud. All the effort you have taken so far gives you a great monitor mix at a reasonable volume level. Crank the volume up and your ears will be damaged. (There's a limiter on the Flow 8's output.)

8) All this is for your optimal and most luxurious iem experience. You can definetely cut corners. If the whole band decides to get on iems, it would be more streamlined with a dedicated iem mixer like mentioned in other posts.

Disclosure: I am so obsessed with my monitor sound, that I have brought a complete rack including an X32 mixer and mic splitters to gigs. Fortunately, this isn't necessary all the time. ;-) HTH

 

[djmay]

7) Do not run your mix too loud. All the effort you have taken so far gives you a great monitor mix at a reasonable volume level. Crank the volume up and your ears will be damaged. (There's a limiter on the Flow 8's output.)

Disclosure: I am so obsessed with my monitor sound, that I have brought a complete rack including an X32 mixer and mic splitters to gigs. Fortunately, this isn't necessary all the time. ;-) HTH

How does the limiter on the Flow 8 come into play? Are you saying that the headphones out includes the limiter? The block diagram (thank you @Wasnex ) shows limiter only on monitor out.

 

[drpepper]

How does the limiter on the Flow 8 come into play? Are you saying that the headphones out includes the limiter? The block diagram (thank you @Wasnex ) shows limiter only on monitor out.

Try a google search for "flow8 limiter on headphone output"

It appears that the main and monitor outputs have fixed spike protection limiting and the headphone output is adjustable through a menu

 

[Wasnex]

How does the limiter on the Flow 8 come into play? Are you saying that the headphones out includes the limiter? The block diagram (thank you @Wasnex ) shows limiter only on monitor out.

The block diagram seems to indicate the headphone signal can be taken off after the limiter. Find this part of the diagram, bottom/center

Link to block diagram: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]


I don't see switching for this on the physical control surface, so I assume it's done in the app.

You could also use the Flow 8 to drive a headphone amp or wired IEM belt pack.