Help with pedal setup

[Mudloop]

Hi,

I'm new here. I'm going to give you some background so it's easier to give me advice.
I've been playing bass for over 15 years, but I just dabble. I love the instrument, but I don't have the time or discipline to really put the work in. My technique is lacking, and I'm not a performing artist, but I'm pretty good at writing catchy basslines. I'm not really in a band, but I play together with a great guitar player and we record songs now and then. I usually write and record the bass for the entire song and set up the structure, and he takes it from there.

I'm a big fan of the Ibanez SR series. I have two of them, and I'm going to buy an SR5000 soon. I play it through an Ashdown evo ii eb 180 combo amp.

I have a bunch of pedals, and I'm about to get some more, because I just love pedals.

I've got my eye on an Eden WTDI pedal. I don't know how it will sound or if it's going to be of any use, but I've only heard good things about it. It's a pre-amp, and I'm not sure if I need that since my basses are active so if I understand correctly, they should already have a pre-amp built-in.

My idea is to set it up as follows. Run my bass to my pedals, then use an ABY to send the signal either to my amp, or the WTDI. Then send both the out of the WTDI and amp's "effect out" to another ABY (one that allows for A+B), and send that to the effect in of the amp. Then send the output of my amp to my audio interface. The idea is that I could switch between my amp's sound and the WTDI's sound, and both make their way to my interface that way (or, when practicing, to my combo's speaker).

If I ever play live (I actually have in the past but it's been a while), this set up would either allow me to have two different sounds without fiddling knobs, or it could allow me to have a back-up in place if my amp ever dies. But currently, I'm mostly interested in playing with different sounds when I record. I kind of want my amp to be set up one way, and the WTDI another, so I can choose what's best for the song without having to change my settings too much.

My knowledge of amps and preamps is a bit lacking, so I'm not sure if this is actually a sensible set-up.

Is it a good way to set it up like that (essentially being able to switch between my real amp and the WTDI)? Is it sensible to put my other pedals in front of both the real amp and the WTDI pre-amp? I know that usually a pre-amp goes in front of effects, but since my bass is active, this might be ok?
I also know that some effects work better after amplification, but since I use a looper / switcher, it would complicate things if I did both (I think I'd essentially use one loop to go to the amps and back again).

I make electronic music with Reason, which has a lot of effects patching, but it's still different with real pedals, because they use real electricity and there's probably a lot of things to take into account that I don't know about. So any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[jez79]

You might run into phase problems with the A+B

 

[Mudloop]

You might run into phase problems with the A+B

Mind elaborating a little? Thanks!

 

[jez79]

The phase of a signal is how far along a cycle you are, or in this case how out of sync your A and B signals might be
Could cancel out some frequencies when you recombine them
Some blenders have a phase switch that might help resolve if its a problem

 

[Mudloop]

The phase of a signal is how far along a cycle you are, or in this case how out of sync your A and B signals might be
Could cancel out some frequencies when you recombine them
Some blenders have a phase switch that might help resolve if its a problem

Ok, thanks. So is this a general problem with ABY pedals, or only with cheaper ones?
And instead of recombining them, would it be better to just manually change which signal gets fed to my audio interface (by plugging it in)?

Alternatively, Harley Benton has a dual loop switcher, which I think could take the place of both ABYs I planned for. Use one loop for the real amp, and one loop for the preamp. Would/could this prevent these problems?

 

[jez79]

It's only an issue if A and B signal paths are very different, say long paths or sometimes pedals can have phase shifting properties
ABY patchpedals are often used so two instruments can be plugged into one system, no phase issues there

 

[simplebassliner]

It's only an issue if A and B signal paths are very different, say long paths or sometimes pedals can have phase shifting properties
ABY patchpedals are often used so two instruments can be plugged into one system, no phase issues there

If I understand it correctly, the phase problems will happen only if the A and B signal are mixed, right? So if the signal are switched and used independently there are no problem with phase?
Please forgive my English...

 

[jez79]

If I understand it correctly, the phase problems will happen only if the A and B signal are mixed, right? So if the signal are switched and used independently there are no problem with phase?
Please forgive my English...

Yes, that's my understanding also

 

[simplebassliner]

Yes, that's my understanding also

Thank you for clarifying this..

My idea is to set it up as follows. Run my bass to my pedals, then use an ABY to send the signal either to my amp, or the WTDI. Then send both the out of the WTDI and amp's "effect out" to another ABY (one that allows for A+B), and send that to the effect in of the amp. Then send the output of my amp to my audio interface. The idea is that I could switch between my amp's sound and the WTDI's sound, and both make their way to my interface that way (or, when practicing, to my combo's speaker).

If I ever play live (I actually have in the past but it's been a while), this set up would either allow me to have two different sounds without fiddling knobs, or it could allow me to have a back-up in place if my amp ever dies. But currently, I'm mostly interested in playing with different sounds when I record. I kind of want my amp to be set up one way, and the WTDI another, so I can choose what's best for the song without having to change my settings too much.

I keep re-reading the OP's post, to finally realized that basically the OP wants to have a second preamp channel to his/her amp using WTDI. To me this is an interesting idea, looking forward to what others have to say about this...

 

[Mudloop]

Yes, that's my understanding also

Oh, ok. I wasn't planning on merging the two signals play together, but you never know. The main idea would be to have two options to switch between, so this shouldn't be an issue.

 

[JollySpudd]

I initially used a Morely A/B/Y box, but yes, issues with grounding, phase were present and varied depending on external factors. I solved my problems with a Radial Bigshot A/B/Y it has phase and ground switches - improved things for me by 90% - waaayyyyyyyy better than the Morely. About 75 bucks but totally worth it.

I'm not sure if your 2 A/B/Y aims are redundundant - a little hard to follow.

I run 2 amps via this signal path: (btw - I mostly use the radial as A+B, not A or B as often, but it does that too)

BASS > Compressor > Radial Input > out Radial A side > to my clean amp (mic'd and/or DI'd out from amp to PA or record interface).

The Radial B side out goes into > my pedals > last pedal output > Boss GE-10 graphic EQ > to my 2nd amp for effects playback (mic'd and/or DI'd to PA or record interface).

I've been pleased with this for my purposes. I suppose a second A/B at the end might give additional flexibility, never needed to consider that. I blend my two signals, like running my fx in parallel with my clean bass, but still can do A or B if I want to.

Don't know if that is helpful for you, but mainly, I like the Radial Bigshot a lot.

The parallel in how I run and what your aim is, is that you're essentially doing a 2 amp system - 1) being your amp and 2) being your WTDI. The only difference I think in how you and I run is I only use fx on one side of my A/B, while your aim is to run fx on both sides, but split or blend A and/or B. It's cool either/or both ways

 

[Mudloop]

I initially used a Morely A/B/Y box, but yes, issues with grounding, phase were present and varied depending on external factors. I solved my problems with a Radial Bigshot A/B/Y it has phase and ground switches - improved things for me by 90% - waaayyyyyyyy better than the Morely. About 75 bucks but totally worth it.

I'm not sure if your 2 A/B/Y aims are redundundant - a little hard to follow.

I run 2 amps via this signal path: (btw - I mostly use the radial as A+B, not A or B as often, but it does that too)

BASS > Compressor > Radial Input > out Radial A side > to my clean amp (mic'd and/or DI'd out from amp to PA or record interface).

The Radial B side out goes into > my pedals > last pedal output > Boss GE-10 graphic EQ > to my 2nd amp for effects playback (mic'd and/or DI'd to PA or record interface).

I've been pleased with this for my purposes. I suppose a second A/B at the end might give additional flexibility, never needed to consider that. I blend my two signals, like running my fx in parallel with my clean bass, but still can do A or B if I want to.

Don't know if that is helpful for you, but mainly, I like the Radial Bigshot a lot.

The parallel in how I run and what your aim is, is that you're essentially doing a 2 amp system - 1) being your amp and 2) being your WTDI. The only difference I think in how you and I run is I only use fx on one side of my A/B, while your aim is to run fx on both sides, but split or blend A and/or B. It's cool either/or both ways

Yeah, that's much like what I'm trying to do, but I'm going to send both of the signal paths to the amp's speaker (with the FX return), just so I have the option to play with that speaker when I'm not recording. I made a quick diagram :

 

[dgrizzly]

OP, I am not the most knowledgeable about this kind of thing, but will try best to help out

Most guitar and bass amps follow this basic flow:

input > preamp (EQ) > effects loop > output

So, you want to put your new preamp pedal in the effects loop so that it comes AFTER the built-in preamp.

BUT, now if you plug into the input on your amp, your signal will travel through BOTH the built-in preamp AND the one in your effects loop, right?

So, to SKIP the built-in preamp and only hit your preamp pedal, you will want to use the Effects Return (in) as your input.

If this is all you wanted to do it would look like this:

bass > preamp pedal > amp effects return

OK, now we want to be able switch back and forth between built-in preamp and pedal preamp so we add an A/B box. That would look something like this:

bass > A/B box
A > amp input
B > preamp pedal > amp effects return

When you hit the switch for channel A, you will be going through the amp's input and will hit the built-in preamp. Since there is nothing plugged in to the Effects Send, this should essentially skip everything you have in the effects loop. Then, on channel B, you will skip the built-in preamp and get just preamp pedal.

Ok, now you obviously want to keep all of your effects. Those go in front of everything and would look like this:

bass > effects pedals > A/B box

So, this should work fine, but you also need to check if you amp's DI is pre or post-EQ. Some give you a choice. If you have a pre-EQ DI, you're not getting any of your amp's tone shaping in with your output signal anyway.

Disclaimer:
I've never tried this, but I read lots of stuff on TalkBass. Hopefully this helps!

 

[dgrizzly]

So, basically, do what your diagram shows, except skip the second A/B box and forget the Effects Send.

 

[JollySpudd]

Yeah, that's much like what I'm trying to do, but I'm going to send both of the signal paths to the amp's speaker (with the FX return), just so I have the option to play with that speaker when I'm not recording. I made a quick diagram :

Seems like an interesting idea. Give it a try, hard to say if you'll have any ground or phase issues or not with the WTDI sort of doing double duty. It does have ground switches on the XLR in/out, so that can be helpful.

It'll be interesting to see if it does what you want it to do.

 

[JollySpudd]

The only possibility that occurs to me, which may or not be a problem, is - depending on your A and/or B switching with the 2nd Y box, if you might ever have any problem with creating some sort of feedback loop. - My brain has a hard time imagining the negative tech issues of the A/B switching variables and how they'd route things.

If you try it, keep your levels low until you're sure.

 

[TOOL460002]

That's way too complicated. I own an Eden navigator and a wtdi. Not exact sound but darn good in a pedal. It beat out many pedals to run as my preamp loop.

Buy it if you need a better preamp. The compression is pretty decent too (but full disclosure I still would run a dbx compressor in front of the navigator). It's worth it for me, but my setup is not at all like yours.

Save money on tons of aby units and cables and etc. Basically you're using it wrong. Kinda. Simpler.

 

[BazzTard]

unless you're gonna switch during songs, you'd be better off just plugging into the wtdi or the amp as you need to.

More pedals=phase issues and greater chance of patch cables failing.

 

[cheapbasslovin]

If you're going to fool around with creative pedal routing, it's much easier to keep it on the pedal board rather than going pedals to amp and back to pedals.

A Boss LS-2 will do much of what you want, but it's all in one pedal. There are others that have some phase correction (Wounded paw has a couple blenders, and the Badger Schism) but the Boss is dirt cheap for many options.

I've done some running from the board to my amp and back to my board. It takes longer to set up, it takes longer to troubleshoot, the signal levels don't match up. It's no way to live.

 

[Mudloop]

Thanks for all the responses.

That's way too complicated. I own an Eden navigator and a wtdi. Not exact sound but darn good in a pedal. It beat out many pedals to run as my preamp loop.

Buy it if you need a better preamp. The compression is pretty decent too (but full disclosure I still would run a dbx compressor in front of the navigator). It's worth it for me, but my setup is not at all like yours.

Save money on tons of aby units and cables and etc. Basically you're using it wrong. Kinda. Simpler.

The problem may be my limited understanding of amps and preamps. I know I want the WTDI because it looks great, I like what I've heard from it in videos, and I've only read good things about it, so I really want to give it a try. But I already have an amp and my basses are active so they already have preamps in them, so I'm not sure if adding another means of amplification in the main loop is something that would benefit my sound, which is why I wanted to experiment with having two loops that I can switch between, and I need to plan what gear I'll need.

unless you're gonna switch during songs, you'd be better off just plugging into the wtdi or the amp as you need to.

More pedals=phase issues and greater chance of patch cables failing.

Well, my cables always become a mess, and constantly having to replug things will hinder my creativity, which is why I want to just be able to press a button and select something.

If you're going to fool around with creative pedal routing, it's much easier to keep it on the pedal board rather than going pedals to amp and back to pedals.

A Boss LS-2 will do much of what you want, but it's all in one pedal. There are others that have some phase correction (Wounded paw has a couple blenders, and the Badger Schism) but the Boss is dirt cheap for many options.

I've done some running from the board to my amp and back to my board. It takes longer to set up, it takes longer to troubleshoot, the signal levels don't match up. It's no way to live.

Ah yes, that could be useful, and looks similar to the harley benton dual loop switcher. I'm also considering the Radial Engineering Tonebone Bigshot EFX which is the same price, and someone above mentioned being very pleased with one of their similar pedals. So not sure yet.