Help with Walking and not targeting Root at first beat

[Max Bogosity]

One place it always seems to work is when the chord changes type while the root remains the same.

For example, the bridge of ‘Sleepwalk’ where it goes from F major to F minor. You could play the root on beat one of the F minor, but it communicates the chord change much more strongly if you play the minor third.

Another example is a blues progression that begins like | A6 | A6 | A6 | A7 | D6 |. In bar 3 you might play R-3-5-6 then start bar four on the b7 and walk down from there. That’s a very common thing that most of us probably do all the time without really thinking about it.

 

[TexasEdition]

"On the one" - Bootsy

 

[TheDirtyLowDown]

Thanks for the question, and this thread -- it's super helpful to read through.

use arpeggios, not modes, as your visual "map" of the chord
4 notes are easier to keep in mind then 7.
easier to see where the other chord tones (root) are from current note.
Then finding the mode is a matter of connecting the dots

I agree with this! It's always been a lot easier for me to visualize 4 note arpeggios
and keeping that simple makes it easier to not get lost.

I have one other suggestion that is helping me. I pick walking bass lines
that I really like and transcribe them and then practice them. Then I know them
well enough to extract useful bits and plug them into my own playing in different
keys, and on different tunes. So when I'm listening to jazz on the radio in the evening
I've got my smartphone handy and I use Shazam to grab things that I want to learn.

Good luck!

 

[EarnestTBass]

when i try to target the chord tones (3rd and 5th for now) at first beat of chord changes, i get lost easily.

When you target a root, you anticipate and prepare the listener for the next root , roots are the strongest tones in chord. When you land on the root, on beat one, you are "home"- it is a strong position

If you are "targeting chord tones" then you are anticipating weaker tones and you are landing on weaker tones of the chord. You are not "home" when you get where you are going. Its not "wrong" to target a root. There just might be something that works better.

It might help if you consider how

[ starting a line with a non chord tone ]

is different than

[ targeting a non chord tone ]

 

[mambo4]

I pick walking bass lines
that I really like and transcribe them and then practice them.

When I was a young rocker, I saw a bassist play nice walking lines at a party.
I asked "how did you learn to play walking bass lines like that?"
He just looked at me and said , matter of factly, "transcribe Ray Brown"

 

[Mushroo]

I practice 12 bar blues in F mainly, without a backing track when I'm slow in a specific concept. I think the main problem is when i arrive for example 3rd of the next chord at beat one it's hard to visualize the mode patterns because my finger is not on the root . I think as always keep practicing is the key.

While I love the blues and practice it often, I would recommend jazz "standards," like "I Got Rhythm," "Autumn Leaves," and "All The Things You Are" for learning walking bass. These types of songs usually have a 32 bar structure and lots of ii-V-I modulations through various key centers.

Also as an aside, personally I've never found the "modal" way of thinking particularly useful, for learning the Blues. More transcribing, less "mode patterns"! A great practice exercise to break out of "boxes" and "patterns" is to create some walking bass lines that never go above the 4th fret. This will force you to think/hear which notes you are playing, instead of relying on muscle memory.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

May I suggest Ron Carter's Building Jazz Bass Lines book? Jazz blues based and will help you with learning options besides playing the root on the 1st beat if that is your goal.
To be honest, just my opinion, the only "scale" I use is the chromatic scale when building jazz walking lines, and that's only when I need to walk smoothly from one arpeggio to another. That's how I was taught. There are other opinions on "which scale to use over which chord", but that approach is so mechanical that it makes it hard to "talk" to the other musicians. Kind of like taking my border collie, Fergus, for a walk, but keeping one boring constant pace and never letting him stop to smell stuff, bark at other dogs, chase a squirrel, pee on a tree, or crap wherever he wanted to crap!!! (Never on the neighbor's yard, of course!) For me, the chromatic "scale" gives me the freedom to communicate with others.
But, that's just me. Try Ron Carter's book.

 

[BrotherMister]

Put down the instrument, grab a pencil and paper, take a standard and sit down to write out walking lines. Write a chorus with the 3rd on each chord change, write the 3rd out beneath each chord change first then you are forcing yourself to connect the line to them.

Once you've written them out, play them and hear what it sounds like. Sometimes it's great, others? not so much. Go and do the same thing with the 5ths, 7ths etc. Once that is done go do the same thing for all 12 keys. You'll be surprise what changing keys on the same progression opens up.

Then move on combining 3rds and 5ths etc. After that get some roots back in as well. It's a lengthy and really ry academic exercise but it does wonders for your eyes, ears and ability on the instrument. The final step is to start improvising walking lines.

If you really want a roast one of my teachers had a rule that I wasn't allowed to repeat the same line but in a different key. It really forces you to create weird and wonderful lines.

Transcribe bass lines Milt Hinton was great at doing exactly what you are asking. Don't just lift the bass line, lift a solo on top of it and you'll really get a hold on what's happening.

To answer your scale problem with regards to being lost on the neck. A good way to practise scales/arpeggios is to take a standard. But for simplicity let's take blues in F. First bar is F7 So go up the scale F, G, A, Bb, C, D, Eb, F in bar 1.
Bar 2 where you move to Bb7 start on the closest available note in that scale. So Bb bar would be G Ab Bb C D Eb F G. Leading back to F7
F7 on Bar 3 would be A Bb C D Eb F G A Bb.
Cm7 - F7 on Bar 4 could be C D Eb F G A Bb C
Bb7 on bar 5: D Eb F G Ab Bb C D and so on and so on.

Start low and go to the highest note on the instrument before coming back to the lowest note. The idea is you are breaking out of thinking of shedding scales as starting on the root and ending on the root. Do the whole thing start on different notes on Bar 1 we started on F in that example, if you start on A or C or Eb you'll change it completely. Then do it on non chord tones and see it change gain. Again, this is super academic and really dry stuff but do it for a good few months and you'll have no problem with the neck and you should be able to connect your ideas more fluently.

 

[Mili]

Thanks for the question, and this thread -- it's super helpful to read through.

You're welcome, I'm glad about this Thread too, many good information is popping up one after other.

I've got my smartphone handy and I use Shazam to grab things that I want to learn.

That's my last task. I have some books to study first.

 

[FatFunk]

Ed's book mentions this approach of not landing on the root, to prepare for the next topic, which is rythm changes, if I recall correctly.
Since Rythm Changes have 2 chords per measure, if you always land on the root on the first beat on each chord, you only have one remaining quarter note to play. By using other chord tones, you free the bassline a little bit.

You will probably practice it much more than what you will actually use it, but practice is the way...

 

[Bass Momma]

Walking takes a lifetime, it seems. If you’re studying Friedland, you’re on the right path. Ray Brown’s book is brilliant, but you may need someone who can put bits of it in perspective. His blues section is excellent, once you’ve figured out what’s going on. But even he says in the intro to that section “Lines such as these (non-basic) examples should be used with discretion, because the true function of the instrument should never be forgotten”.
Me, I’m still at the stage where I consider it a victory if I mark the changes and don’t screw up... too badly... !

 

[dkelley]

You should hit the root at the first beat. That's what the bass is for. Then the solo instruments can hit the chord notes. If you skip the root on beat one, do it on beat two.

If you get lost easily, then just keep doing it until you know where the notes are.

You have to know the chords. I do the same.

That's what the bass is for? Depends on the style of music, very very strongly. In some styles, yes absolutely you're right.

In jazz, with a walking bass line (as mentioned by the OP), it isn't... in jazz, guitar is the one that plays the main chords and hits root, and bass drives consistent tempo with a quarter note walk and yes, can hit roots on the beat. Bass that's walking though also should know the chords well enough to be able to hit any fundamental note in the chord of the current beat, and if a diatonic walking line brings us to the 3rd, 5th, or 6th or whatever fits well of the next chord, that's an appropriate note to play at that moment.

 

[Mushroo]

I agree with everything you said except this:

in jazz, guitar is the one that plays the main chords and hits root

Good jazz guitarists and pianists often omit the root and/or 5th from their chord voicings. Sometimes in jazz nobody is playing the root (and that's okay; we can "hear" it in our minds).

 

[azureblue]

You should hit the root at the first beat. That's what the bass is for. Then the solo instruments can hit the chord notes. If you skip the root on beat one, do it on beat two.

Uh, no. A good jazz keys or guitar player will be throwing chord substitutions / inversions left and right. If you are making the rookie mistake of sticking to the Real Book 1 chords, a more experienced player will tell you which chords are wrong, but you will see that for the most part both chord versions would work. For instance, you may come across a iii / vi / 11 /V7 progression. First time the keys guy will play it, at least behind the head, but when it comes solo time, you can bet he will throw in a chromatic descending progression from the iii. Or change his chord inversions so that, (using the key of Bb) all of those chords have Bb as the low note. That is iii = D minor #5, vi = G minor 7 1st inversion (3rd on the bottom), ii= C minor 7 with the 7th on the bottom, and V7 sus with the Bb on the bottom. Why? to get a pedal tone effect. If you insist on walking all 4 chords, you will mess up the pedal tone, so you should have your ears open and pedal the Bb with him. Plus there are plenty of jazz chords where the root of the chord is not what the bass should play- Bb sus with Eb in the bass, C maj7 with D in the bass

Another example - Cloud Burst. Fast = 318 BPM. An ascending / descending chord progression from Bb to Eb and down again. Then a ii / V7 / 1 in Eb, then the same, in F. So what is that, actually? It's noodling around on a Bb, then play the IV chord, the the V7 chord. Well, a simplified explanation. If the keys guy plays root position chords the tune sound clunky. But if he plays a series of inversions ( root, 1st inversion, 2nd inversion, etc) for the verse then you get what the song is about.

At one point, I was reflexively playing a ii / half dim ii / 17, every time I saw a ii / V7 / 1 (this is based upon using tri tone substitutions to create chromatic chord progressions. And it works in reverse). You see a 1 for 4 measures, you can play a iii / vi / 11 / V. Just make sure you hit the 1 before you go to the next chord. That's where the fun is - your lines have to make sense - they have to have a direction and flow, so you have to figure out what chords can be substituted and create on the fly a smooth walking bass line, all the while cueing off the other players. You can't abdicate your role as an anchor, but OTOH you can't be the guy that just walks through the stock chords all the way through the song. Always, before you play a tune, analyze it for substitutions and inversions.

To be contrary a bass player has to know theory and chord substitutions. You do not have to hit the root all the time, but you must be aware of points of resolution places where you anchor the song with a tonic or an obvious chord progression like a 11 / V7/ 1. I, mean, this is jazz and jazz is an exploration in real time of harmonies. My approach is to keep it to the agreed upon chords for the head and tail, but throw the substitutions when cued by the soloists. Keep your ears open, and if the ensemble starts to feel shaky, that's when you go back to basics.

 

[sing-modulator]

Imho, any chord tone is fair game. A bass line is a melody. If the melody is effective, itll carry through the changes. Try to hear the whole chord, not just the root. Listen for the functionality of the harmony, and the pull of the music, rather than listening for a progression of roots.

 

[dkelley]

I agree with everything you said except this:



Good jazz guitarists and pianists often omit the root and/or 5th from their chord voicings. Sometimes in jazz nobody is playing the root (and that's okay).

good point, I was inaccurate

Cheers

 

[jellymax]

First learn this simple exercise over
One chord before applying to chord
Changes.
(This works on 4/4 time)

Take the scale for C7 (mixolydian),
Adding a one more note between
Bflat and C (B natural)
Now you have a scale with a
Chord tone (1357) every other
Note.
Start on the 3rd, and play a chord
Tone on beats 1 & 3.
Start on the 5th.
Start on the 7th
Now try descending from the 7th
Etc...
Then switch from ascending to descending as desired.
Hope that helps

 

[dkelley]

By the way, I have no useful advice for the OP's main question for how to accomplish what he wants... sorry

I understand getting lost, very well. I would say that practicing not only scale but also major and minor and 7th and 6th arpeggios could help to re-enforce the basic chord structures that you encounter while "Walking" through chords, whether academically or when playing walking bass lines in actual music.

It's something I have always done, as a side effect of being a classically trained musician, and it does help to make it sort of a habit of knowing the inversions of chords as you come across them while walking on bass.

But there are probably way better and more helpful tips than that

Good luck! Keep practicing! And always remember, if you can't do something reliably over and over without error, do it slower until you CAN repeat it over and over, then only speed it up after a few days at that tempo (if you have the luxury of time).... and you'll find yourself getting faster and better and less error prone without doing any actual work... just repetition without failure. Which is why practicing can get boring LoL

 

[JRA]

how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

he says you're no longer restricted to play root on beat one

depends!

IME: a great walk will accommodate the rest of the ensemble 'shenanigans' (inversions, reharmonizations on the fly, etc.) and so any of the 'rules' can go out the window easily, in the very next measure, at supersonic tempos.... my point: no matter what the books say: the other players will tell you (verbally or musically) what they'd like to hear (depend on!) to accomplish their starring moment(s). some cats don't care about the root-on-one so much where other cats consider it a 'lifeline'. sometimes playing 'outside' is the cat's meow --- sometimes it's more of a litter box!

good luck walking!

 

[Don Kasper]

The Root shouldn't always be on beat 1 (at medium or faster tempi)...it can stifle creativity and variety. IMFO.
Here is an example of a walking bassline in an F Blues, where the Root is sometimes delayed in the measure.
(Please ignore the Highlighter...from an earlier "discussion" from the DB side of TB.)
Thanks.