Help with Walking and not targeting Root at first beat

[Don Kasper]

Put down the instrument, grab a pencil and paper, take a standard and sit down to write out walking lines. Write a chorus with the 3rd on each chord change, write the 3rd out beneath each chord change first then you are forcing yourself to connect the line to them.

You win the Internetz today!!
Nicely done.
Thanks.

 

[J_Bass]

That's what the bass is for? Depends on the style of music, very very strongly. In some styles, yes absolutely you're right.

In jazz, with a walking bass line (as mentioned by the OP), it isn't... in jazz, guitar is the one that plays the main chords and hits root, and bass drives consistent tempo with a quarter note walk and yes, can hit roots on the beat. Bass that's walking though also should know the chords well enough to be able to hit any fundamental note in the chord of the current beat, and if a diatonic walking line brings us to the 3rd, 5th, or 6th or whatever fits well of the next chord, that's an appropriate note to play at that moment.

Please read my next above, after that one, I explain better.

And yes, the bass should play the root on one. If not on one, then on the two.

Guitar? It's more absent than present, in Jazz.

I am learning to walk properly now. These are just opinions based on what I have read, on my lessons and what I listen to.

Feel free to disagree.

I also use chord notes, or the scale. I don't use the modes.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

You should hit the root at the first beat. That's what the bass is for. Then the solo instruments can hit the chord notes. If you skip the root on beat one, do it on beat two.

This is fine if you play 30s - 50s swing, but you don't play the root on one in every bar if you play Coltrane changes. The last sentence is nonsense.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

This is why i asked how much is it common in professional lines.

There subject is too broad to have a definite answer. Early swing, very often root on one every bar. 60's to present, much more variation. It also depends on personal preferences, type of band etc etc. You should be able to cover all variants according to different styles.

 

[brianrost]

yes, the bass should play the root on one. If not on one, then on the two

There are so many counterexamples in jazz. Transcribing tunes is where you start seeing how to do it. I recently transcribed a Billie Holiday tune called "Comes Love" that has a very interesting bass line.

The verses are just Cm7 to G7 and back, during the vocals played as a two-beat with some 1/8 or 1/16th passing tones. On the Cm7 the bassist plays C then G, but on the G7 it's reversed...the fifth first, D then G.

C G | C G | D G | D G | D G | D G | C G | C G ....

In the bridge, it has two bars of Cm7 followed by two bars of Fm7 followed by two bars of Bb7, the final two bars is Eb/Ab followed by D/G

Check this out from the first bridge:

G F E G | C D Eb G | F G Ab G | F C Ab C | F Eb D C | Bb D F Bb | Eb Eb G Eb | D D G D

Both the Cm7 and Bb7 runs start on the 5, although the second bar does start on the root. At the end of bar 4, the C is used as a "5 of 5" because the next bar starts on F, the 5th of the Bb chord.

The second bridge is a bit different, but again the Cm7 and Bb7 chords start with the 5, thereby creating a repeating motif. Notice how bar 6 uses a chromatic passing tone on beat 2 and a scale tone on beat 3. Beat 4 is a chord tone, D, but it also is a half step below the Eb root in bar 7.

G F Eb D | C D Eb G | F C Ab F | F G C G| F Eb D C | Bb B C D | Eb F G Bb | D A G B

As far as roots on beat 2, I have heard Ron Carter play something like E C C G over a C major chord.

Here's a line I use in a jazz waltz one of my bands play, there is an extended vamp section of two bars of F7 followed by two bars of G7. Only the first bar starts on the root, and bar 4 has no root at all...5, 6, b7. The E is used as a half step approach to the F root coming in the next bar.

F A F | C F A | B A G | F D E

 

[BigEarl]

All these books ...I'm no librarian!

 

[brianrost]

Don't forget, no bassist ever got fired for playing roots and fifths

 

[J_Bass]

There are so many counterexamples in jazz. Transcribing tunes is where you start seeing how to do it. I recently transcribed a Billie Holiday tune called "Comes Love" that has a very interesting bass line.

The verses are just Cm7 to G7 and back, during the vocals played as a two-beat with some 1/8 or 1/16th passing tones. On the Cm7 the bassist plays C then G, but on the G7 it's reversed...the fifth first, D then G.

C G | C G | D G | D G | D G | D G | C G | C G ....

In the bridge, it has two bars of Cm7 followed by two bars of Fm7 followed by two bars of Bb7, the final two bars is Eb/Ab followed by D/G

Check this out from the first bridge:

G F E G | C D Eb G | F G Ab G | F C Ab C | F Eb D C | Bb D F Bb | Eb Eb G Eb | D D G D

Both the Cm7 and Bb7 runs start on the 5, although the second bar does start on the root. At the end of bar 4, the C is used as a "5 of 5" because the next bar starts on F, the 5th of the Bb chord.

The second bridge is a bit different, but again the Cm7 and Bb7 chords start with the 5, thereby creating a repeating motif. Notice how bar 6 uses a chromatic passing tone on beat 2 and a scale tone on beat 3. Beat 4 is a chord tone, D, but it also is a half step below the Eb root in bar 7.

G F Eb D | C D Eb G | F C Ab F | F G C G| F Eb D C | Bb B C D | Eb F G Bb | D A G B

As far as roots on beat 2, I have heard Ron Carter play something like E C C G over a C major chord.

Here's a line I use in a jazz waltz one of my bands play, there is an extended vamp section of two bars of F7 followed by two bars of G7. Only the first bar starts on the root, and bar 4 has no root at all...5, 6, b7. The E is used as a half step approach to the F root coming in the next bar.

F A F | C F A | B A G | F D E

Thank you for the examples.

I am in the beginning, so it is very possible that I am starting with the basic rules before expanding.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I am learning to walk properly now. These are just opinions based on what I have read, on my lessons and what I listen to.

And it may be that, after spending more than two years in this endeavor, these opinions may change as they become better informed....

 

[lfmn16]

If you are getting lost you either don’t know you fingerboard, your scales, your chords, or some combination of those. When you know those three things you’ll rarely get lost, regardless of what you play on the one. There’s no substitute for a good teacher and hours of practice.

 

[Carl Hillman]

how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

Your answer lies in transcribing and analyzing "professional walking Bass lines".

That is probably not what you wanted to hear, but bass players have been improvising walking bass lines for almost a hundred years, and a large part of the recorded evidence of that is readily available for study.

The best way to learn how it's done is to listen to it, transcribe it, analyze it, memorize it, and internalize it until you make it your own thing.

 

[J_Bass]

And it may be that, after spending more than two years in this endeavor, these opinions may change as they become better informed....

Yes, I agree.

I'm in the beginning of my second year of lessons.

I'm the initial talk with my teacher, we agreed that I would learn things properly, no shortcuts, patterns or sheeting.

The OP seemed to be in a similar situation. You can't have a roof without the walls.

 

[J_Bass]

And it may be that, after spending more than two years in this endeavor, these opinions may change as they become better informed....

Just realized who was replying to me.

I am certainly not going to argue with you @Ed Fuqua , ahah! I have your book, the only thing I can do, is listen to what you say and learn!

 

[David Jayne]

A song such as 'So What' would get mighty tedious if the bass player stuck to the root on 1. Think about it. You can play whatever you want if you know how to make it work.

 

[Wasnex]

Hello to all.
I'm working on Scalewise motion but when i try to target the chord tones (3rd and 5th for now) at first beat of chord changes, i get lost easily.
Am i missing something? Is there any approach or trick to make it easier?

Another Q: how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

As far as the getting lost easily, this is most likely because you are trying to progress too quickly. When I first started learning to walk, I would slow down as much as necessary, so that I could think of all the chord tones and then choose what I wanted to play. I might even play out of time entirely. It was basically a process of experimentation to see what sounded good.

Some foundational material you need: Learn your major and minor keys signatures and all 7th and 6th chords cold. You could also practice arpeggiating the chords in root, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion.

When you are first learning a new tune, consider stringing two bars together at a time and repeating them slowly until you have a variety of patterns you can play. Then move forward one bar and do the same thing. After you have worked on four bars string them all together in a repeat. The trick is to always start as slow as necessary, so you can actually think about the theory you need to play the changes.

Once the song is "played in" you will use primarily your ears and the linkage with your fingers. Basically your mind will eventually automate much of the process. The chords become archetypes that your mind translates into a library ideas that you can apply instantly without a lot of conscious thought about the notes. The concept of ear training is a very important thing to grasp, here as you should hear what you play in your head as you finger the notes.

As you get more skilled you will not need to slow down as much, and you will be able to sight read simple changes at tempo. But some changes will be tricky, and slowing down, performing harmonic analysis, and playing the changes "in" will always hold value. Basically this is necessary when chords are used in a way that you are not familiar with, or when you face chord alterations that you don't intuitively understand. When this happens, the archetype your brain has established for chords does not work properly, so you have to slow down and learn a new way to approach the problem.

Although you do tend to play the root on the down beat more frequently, with some degree of finesse you can play any chord tone on the down beat in the right context, and you don't necessarily have to play the root on beat two. IMHO 3rds and 5ths are so consonant that you can often play them on the down beat and simply walk diatonically to the next chord tone, and it will sound nice. If you play a more dissonant tone like a 7th or a 9th on the down beat, you will probably want to follow it with the root on two. When you play a 7th or 9th on the downbeat you are intentionally making a fairly overt statement. Whether you can get away with this is somewhat dependent on the style of music your are playing, and the players you surround yourself with.

Good Luck!

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

Think about it. You can play whatever you want if you know how to make it work.

Weeeell, if you starting making chromatic approaches to tritone subs in a Glenn Miller tribute band, you'll probably be fired before you can say "In the mood".

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Hello to all.
I'm working on Scalewise motion but when i try to target the chord tones (3rd and 5th for now) at first beat of chord changes, i get lost easily.
Am i missing something? Is there any approach or trick to make it easier?

Another Q: how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

Well, 3rds and 5ths are fairly simple man. One string up, and one fret down (2 down for minor), or the octave of that being 3 strings up, one fret up (same feet for minor) if you're rooting on your E string. 5ths are one string up, 2 frets up, or one string down, same fret. You'll get it. Keep playing.

 

[J_Bass]

Respectfully, I would rather take construction advice from someone who is experienced at building houses. (Spoiler: Sometimes they put up the roof before the walls.)

Ditto with walking bass lines.

Respectfully, do you know what figure of speach means?

 

[knight of ni]

I was there a few weeks ago. You feel magnetic attraction towards the root sometimes making big and inappropriate jumps for it. Whenever you reach a 3rd or a 5th you get lost because, hey, this might even be really close to the forthcoming root and you wonder how to play some notes yet remain stationary, close the targeted note.
Every chord /seequence of chords is taken from a scale, or a set of scales 'that works'. If you see a ii-V-I you know that the corresponding major scale can be played throughout this sequence. Now if you play only notes from the scale, almost at random, it's ok but it will sound very bland, neutral not underlining the song. This is almost the opposite of playing the root and arpeggio on each chord. To add some colour, you can play any mode of the scale on any chord. Again if you do that randomly this will sound weird. Ok but weird. You have to identify the places where you can wander on the scale and play a mode or a bit of a mode over a chord and places where you have to stick to the chord or a strong sounding scale like a pentatonic.
I'm not there yet, far from it, but I no longer cling to the root on first beat. Here is what I did :
-Learn the scale as a whole all over the neck.
-See where the modes fit in, both 8 notes and arpeggios, like bricks making a wall (the scale).
-Also know where the scale degrees are.
You also need to have access to harmonic analysis of the chosen standard, i.e. what can be played over chord(s), either through a teacher or on the net. Choose a not too complex standard with several measures in the same scale : that will allow you to try different options. At first playing two measures in a scale without root/arpeggios constraints will look like being Columbus sailing to the west in the open sea, but you'll get it... eventually.
Once you're somewhat familiar with that, you can also start to solo. It's a whole different state of mind, but the harmonic mechanics are the same.

 

[David Jayne]

Weeeell, if you starting making chromatic approaches to tritone subs in a Glenn Miller tribute band, you'll probably be fired before you can say "In the mood".

I did say "if you know how to make it work." If you do, you'd not do that now wouldya? : D