Help with Walking and not targeting Root at first beat

[FugaziBomb]

In Ray Brown's Bass Method here or here, there are few pages near the end of the book about blues.

This is a fantastic book. This was my foundation for learning jazz walking when I first started down that road. Definitely a must have If you're into building a library of study material.

 

[Frank77]

I'm studying Ed Friedland's book. After explaining the Scaleswise motion there is a section called "The next step" and he says you're no longer restricted to play root on beat one. I know role of the Bass but I believe in this awesome book. This is why i asked how much is it common in professional lines. I think learning this concept will help we a lot for making melodies or soloing too.

It's an excellent book!

Hitting chord tones other than root on beat 1 can certainly be interesting, but I personally think this is something to be used sparingly (as opposed to "avoiding root notes on beat 1 at all costs"). Avoiding root notes all the time can make your line sound too "detached" from the song, for lack of a better term.

As far as getting lost, there's nothing wrong with playing the same note twice in a row if it helps you keep your spot (I know it helps me sometimes). Pros do it too.

 

[7615]

You should hit the root at the first beat. That's what the bass is for. Then the solo instruments can hit the chord notes. If you skip the root on beat one, do it on beat two.

If you get lost easily, then just keep doing it until you know where the notes are.

You have to know the chords. I do the same.

that is only true is some forms of music. Knowing the key of the song and the melody and just keep moving with little regard for the chord changes often works . Not in blues - which demands a root on 1.

 

[BarfanyShart]

Start with the fifth, because a lot of lines you are probably already play you might lead to the root of the next chord with the fifth of the upcoming chord on beat 4. You can start by just playing the fifth twice, on beat 4, then 1. Then tieing those two notes, hitting the fifth on beat four and letting it ring through beat one - that can be pretty hip, like a reference to the construction of a Latin bass line.

Thirds are just tougher to make sound right in a walking line, really depends on what else is going on. I like thirds on one when the groove is "in two" - to my ear that works better.

 

[Mili]

, if I recall correctly

Yes you are right.

your lines have to make sense - they have to have a direction and flow, so you have to figure out what chords can be substituted and create on the fly a smooth walking bass line

Yes I guess I have a very long journey ahead. Thank you.

Listen for the functionality of the harmony,

Nice tip, many times the obvious ones like this one stay hidden from us. Thanks.

Hope that helps

Thanks man.

 

[Mili]

As far as the getting lost easily, this is most likely because you are trying to progress too quickly. When I first started learning to walk, I would slow down as much as necessary, so that I could think of all the chord tones and then choose what I wanted to play. I might even play out of time entirely. It was basically a process of experimentation to see what sounded good.

Some foundational material you need: Learn your major and minor keys signatures and all 7th and 6th chords cold. You could also practice arpeggiating the chords in root, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd inversion.

When you are first learning a new tune, consider stringing two bars together at a time and repeating them slowly until you have a variety of patterns you can play. Then move forward one bar and do the same thing. After you have worked on four bars string them all together in a repeat. The trick is to always start as slow as necessary, so you can actually think about the theory you need to play the changes.

Once the song is "played in" you will use primarily your ears and the linkage with your fingers. Basically your mind will eventually automate much of the process. The chords become archetypes that your mind translates into a library ideas that you can apply instantly without a lot of conscious thought about the notes. The concept of ear training is a very important thing to grasp, here as you should hear what you play in your head as you finger the notes.

As you get more skilled you will not need to slow down as much, and you will be able to sight read simple changes at tempo. But some changes will be tricky, and slowing down, performing harmonic analysis, and playing the changes "in" will always hold value. Basically this is necessary when chords are used in a way that you are not familiar with, or when you face chord alterations that you don't intuitively understand. When this happens, the archetype your brain has established for chords does not work properly, so you have to slow down and learn a new way to approach the problem.

Although you do tend to play the root on the down beat more frequently, with some degree of finesse you can play any chord tone on the down beat in the right context, and you don't necessarily have to play the root on beat two. IMHO 3rds and 5ths are so consonant that you can often play them on the down beat and simply walk diatonically to the next chord tone, and it will sound nice. If you play a more dissonant tone like a 7th or a 9th on the down beat, you will probably want to follow it with the root on two. When you play a 7th or 9th on the downbeat you are intentionally making a fairly overt statement. Whether you can get away with this is somewhat dependent on the style of music your are playing, and the players you surround yourself with.

Good Luck!

OMG, very priceless tips. Thank you very much.

 

[Robscott]

May I suggest Ron Carter's Building Jazz Bass Lines book? Jazz blues based and will help you with learning options besides playing the root on the 1st beat if that is your goal.
To be honest, just my opinion, the only "scale" I use is the chromatic scale when building jazz walking lines, and that's only when I need to walk smoothly from one arpeggio to another. That's how I was taught. There are other opinions on "which scale to use over which chord", but that approach is so mechanical that it makes it hard to "talk" to the other musicians. Kind of like taking my border collie, Fergus, for a walk, but keeping one boring constant pace and never letting him stop to smell stuff, bark at other dogs, chase a squirrel, pee on a tree, or crap wherever he wanted to crap!!! (Never on the neighbor's yard, of course!) For me, the chromatic "scale" gives me the freedom to communicate with others.
But, that's just me. Try Ron Carter's book.

Well that's a new take on it! 100% get ya!

 

[glocke1]

Hello to all.
I'm working on Scalewise motion but when i try to target the chord tones (3rd and 5th for now) at first beat of chord changes, i get lost easily.
Am i missing something? Is there any approach or trick to make it easier?

Another Q: how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

Is there a decent jazz bass player near you where you can take lessons?


This book (which Im sure someone must have recommended already)....is a good resource..

Walking Bassics: The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing by Ed Fuqua | Sher Music Co.

 

[dkelley]

Please read my next above, after that one, I explain better.

And yes, the bass should play the root on one. If not on one, then on the two.

Guitar? It's more absent than present, in Jazz.

I am learning to walk properly now. These are just opinions based on what I have read, on my lessons and what I listen to.

Feel free to disagree.

I also use chord notes, or the scale. I don't use the modes.

Not disagreeing. Just offering my opinion after working in jazz since 1983 and studying it at college. Jazz is an interesting thing though. . Lots of variation between playing styles and it's still jazz

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

And yes, the bass should play the root on one. If not on one, then on the two.

This is still not good advice, or any common practice. Root on one? Sure, many times, not all times. I depends on style and many other factors. "If not on one, then on two" is still nonsense.

Guitar? It's more absent than present, in Jazz.

Not really.

 

[Curley Shadow]

Play roots when accompanying (w/ obviously passing tones, etc) and avoid them when soloing. This depends on group/style you're playing with but in general and majority of the time, this is a basic foundational rule for steady work.

 

[knight of ni]

Guitar? It's more absent than present, in Jazz.

 

[Curley Shadow]

This is still not good advice, or any common practice. Root on one? Sure, many times, not all times. I depends on style and many other factors. "If not on one, then on two" is still nonsense.
There are several latin forms where bass is not on the one, either tied over or starting later on an offbeat but walking style is mostly on root on one unless you want to piss off the piano player, a good pianist knows not to stomp on a bassist by avoiding root position chords in jazz, but some blues styles can be an exception where piano double bass. As you say, depends on style but general rule is to play root on one when accompanying.


Not really.

 

[Fredrik E. Nilsen]

As you say, depends on style but general rule is to play root on one when accompanying.

The subject is too broad to make such a rule. It is true in some styles, not in others. Sure, you will probably play more roots on one than major 7ths on one, but it's stil not a "general rule", except for some styles.

 

[Door County Bass]

I practice 12 bar blues in F mainly, without a backing track when I'm slow in a specific concept. I think the main problem is when i arrive for example 3rd of the next chord at beat one it's hard to visualize the mode patterns because my finger is not on the root . I think as always keep practicing is the key.

There are plenty of blues backing tracks on YT. Different keys and speeds. You can also slow down any backing track on YT by finding the little dots (upper right hand corner?) and use the built in “slow downer”. Have fun and don’t over think it.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Hello to all.
I'm working on Scalewise motion but when i try to target the chord tones (3rd and 5th for now) at first beat of chord changes, i get lost easily.
Am i missing something? Is there any approach or trick to make it easier?

Another Q: how much is this common in professional walking Bass lines? How much is it important?

The common approach, and one I'm not always very good at, is to play 1/4 or 1/8 notes evenly and and as you are walking to NOT necessarily go to the root of each chord. Rather, go to the closest note of the chord that is coming up from where your finger is. So if the last note you played in the current chord is an A, what is the next closest note that is part of the next chord?

This is a real common Jazz technique and you need to know both how the chords you are playing against are spelled and where all the notes are across the neck. You don't need to hit the root of each chord every time. It's good to hit the tonic at least once in a while, which is the root of chord the key is in, to help keep things on track, but you don't necessarily have to hit the root of each chord all the time. And, you have to listen to what you're playing if you think you are losing the foundation...if you are - hit some more roots to get back on track.

So pick a progression. II, V, I is a common jazz progression, so pick a key and work on that. Jazz also uses a lot 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc., so don't forget those notes. And I'd suggest you say the notes you are hitting as you play them or at least the notes you are transitioning to in the next chord.

After you have the II, V, I progression down, the try a I, IV, V progression, which is more common in rock and blues, and work on that. It's not something that is going to happen overnight.

 

[ole Jason]

One thing I'd add is that the way you approach note choice and how you outline changes when walking should make sense in the context of who you're playing with. My approach is to keep things simple and predictable when I'm playing with new people, with people who may not play a lot of jazz, or if it is a tune I'm not familiar with myself. If I'm playing with people I've gigged with a ton I might not even play the changes for a chorus, maybe I'll drone a single note for 16 bars? It really just depends on where the tune is going, but I know the other people will pick up on it and react to it.

In the context of working jobs no one will ever fault you for playing simple lines as long as they are effective and have a good feel. The bass, and drums, can keep everyone on the same page.

 

[Curley Shadow]

maybe not a “rule” in the classic sense but common practice, depends on the gig i play a number of styles including jazz professionally and the majority are best played root on one if I want to keep working my advice is to the obvious novice

 

[BarfanyShart]

Start with the fifth, because a lot of lines you are probably already play you might lead to the root of the next chord with the fifth of the upcoming chord on beat 4. You can start by just playing the fifth twice, on beat 4, then 1. Then tieing those two notes, hitting the fifth on beat four and letting it ring through beat one - that can be pretty hip, like the construction of a Latin bass line.

Thirds are just tougher to make sound right in a walking line, really depends on what else is going on. I like thirds on one when the groove is "in two" - to my ear that works better.

maybe not a “rule” in the classic sense but common practice, depends on the gig i play a number of styles including jazz professionally and the majority are best played root on one if I want to keep working my advice is to the obvious novice

I've tested this, you can not hit the root on one twice a night and not get fired.

 

[fdeck]

My main band is a big-band, so the parts are all charted. Sometimes it's clear when a written-out bass part is that of the original composer, arranger, or a seminal recording. Sometimes the bass part is just chord symbols, or has been simplified, e.g., if it's arranged for use in an educational setting.

Anyway, many of the "original" parts do not have exclusively roots on 1.

When playing ad lib, or in a combo situation, then I think it's good to have a sense for what else is happening in the band. Sometimes a soloist or singer needs those roots to keep from getting lost. One singer told me quite bluntly: "I need you to play the roots, because the bass is the only part that I can trust, everybody else is all over the place." If it sounds like a soloist is struggling or someone is lost, then hew to those roots, and perhaps even play in 2.

It's been rare, but when the band is really lost, I've gone so far as to play the melody in order to get everybody back into the form. The show must go on.

The more solid the band, the more liberties you can take.

"I solemnly swear to play the root, the whole root, and nothing but the root, so help me Dusty Hill."