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Passive basses are an application where a cable can make a difference because of capacitance. Of course a shorter cable will also have lower capacitance.
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Hey nerds! 3 high-quality cables, all sound different--why?
- Thread starter bongomania
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Passive basses are an application where a cable can make a difference because of capacitance. Of course a shorter cable will also have lower capacitance.
I have a raft of cables of all makes, models, and lengths, and they all sound the same to me. I can hear the difference between my Strat and my Epic 5, though. 
I don't notice the difference between different lengths of the same cable type. However, I dial a lot of the treble out of my passive bass with the tone control.
I'm honestly surprised that anyone could read the OP and think I was just unaware of the idea that capacitance can affect treble content. Kinda makes me lose hope in this place.
Hey Bongo, I know that you know your stuff. I'm generally interested in your tests and results as I'm using Monster cables, which I'm learning have capacitance issues themselves. I'm using active basses which should alleviate the capacitance issues, but I'm curious about the Elixir cables.
The answer to your question is "yes it is" but it "depends".
This is going to get technical so hang on. The first thing you must understand is that it makes a difference if an instrument is passive or active. Active instruments almost always have a low impedance cable driver designed to overwhelm cable characteristics specifically so a cable WON'T change the sound. But even so if your cable is VERY long it still can make a difference.
Passive instruments are a whole nother ball game. First understand that the usual idea is that a cable is just some kind of magic conduit that carries the sound of your instrument from the guitar to the amp. But this is not the case. A cable is actually an electronic circuit that ALSO trys to carry to signal from the guitar to the amp without changing it (much). Understanding a cable as an electronic component you need to remember that a cable has not only capacitance (usually rated as so much per foot) but also inductance (has to do with how thin the center conductor is) and resistance (also depends upon the thickness and material of the center conductor).
In a passive instrument the impedance of the instrument is very high. The input impedance of the amp is usually very high as well. If we multiply the cable capacitance per foot by the length we in essence can figure out what value capacitor the cable represents. If the value is high enough it's just identical to adding a varitone to your axe. Yes, long cables will change the tone. Yes, cables have different capacitances. So one would think that the obvious answer is to use low capacitance cable. Well that might be true, but you can find that certain ultra low capacitance cables tend to be very microphonic. In other words if you tap on the cable you can hear it in your speakers! So there is much more to this than it might seem.
And there is more. The pickups in a bass or guitar are wound with lots of wire that makes for a high inductance. If we slap a capacitance (from the cable and the coil itself) on there, we can create a tuned circuit. The frequency of that circuit depends on L (the pickup) R (the volume control) and C (tone and cable capacitance). Depending on the various values of these parts you can have all manner of tone shaping. It can be from a mid-high peak to a high end roll off. So clearly the capacitance and the inductance and the resistance of the cable can dramatically affect the sound because of these effects. Even the connectors can add resistance that can change the tone. Personally I always prefer gold plated connectors because they always seem to be nice low resistance and don't corrode as fast so as to not get crackly for a very long time.
So now if you get to the question "are boutique cables worth the money?" you can only answer "yes" if the tone they give ON YOUR SETUP is one you are in love with. You just have to try these things. Who knows even some cheap crap cable might give that tone you want. Of course there are other considerations. Some are mechanical. I've mentioned microphonics. Others have to do with shielding efficiency. No most cables do NOT provide 100% shielding from hum. They usually have ratings for this. Cheap cables often don't have strong connections or hold the cable in the connectors so they break after a time or the wires come loose. Cheap cables will even have plugs that are not to common size specifications which may not properly fit in the jacks causing problems.
In short you may think cables don't matter but they do make a difference. Happily for reasonably short cables the difference in sound is minor and most people don't bother with it. But it is true.
I'm genuinely interested, if for no other reason than to find out if my mogamis were worth the dough... Good thread so far Bongo
yeah thats what i meant. imo since each of us perceive differently and the computer would do that entirely differently too so what does it lead to?
I'm not necessarily suggesting this is the answer to the OP, but it certainly offers food for thought:
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
In summary,
"I am convinced that [acoustic] comb filtering is at the root of people reporting a change in the sound of cables and electronics even when no significant change is likely. If someone listens to their system using one pair of cables, then gets up and switches cables and sits down again, the frequency response heard is sure to be very different because it's impossible to sit down again in exactly the same place. So the sound really did change, but probably not because the cables sound different!"
http://www.ethanwiner.com/believe.html
In summary,
"I am convinced that [acoustic] comb filtering is at the root of people reporting a change in the sound of cables and electronics even when no significant change is likely. If someone listens to their system using one pair of cables, then gets up and switches cables and sits down again, the frequency response heard is sure to be very different because it's impossible to sit down again in exactly the same place. So the sound really did change, but probably not because the cables sound different!"
[Cue Mr. Burns rubbing his hands]
....Eeeexcellent.
The author has a point, but given some knowledge of room acoustics, I'm NOT convinced that if you sit in the same chair in the same place, that a few inches' difference in the position of your ears makes any audible difference. IMO the argument makes a point in theory but is irrelevant in application, as long as the tester makes an effort to sit in the same place and no other objects in the room (people, chairs) move around.
No thread hijack intended!
Any chance you could record clips with each cable and post them? Ideally, the recordings would all be from the same source and performance to eliminate as many variables as possible.
You could try feeding the bass to a loopback station using a very short cable, than changing the three (longer) cables between the loopback and the spectrum analyzer. The extra pedal would not produce the exact same signal as a straight "clean" bass, but would give you a consistent tone you can test with. If there's a difference, you've got undeniable proof.
If not, it's either subjective or related to some other electrical properties the loopback has masked, and you have to use just the bass. However, just plucking three times would show different results every time. It wouldn't be that much proof.
But ultimately, if there were a difference with a loopback, there you go.
If not, it's either subjective or related to some other electrical properties the loopback has masked, and you have to use just the bass. However, just plucking three times would show different results every time. It wouldn't be that much proof.
But ultimately, if there were a difference with a loopback, there you go.
You should try it sometime. Depending on what source material you listen to and how big your room is, I think you'd be able to convince yourself quite easily.
Interesting certainly, but not applicable to my specific case. For one thing, I am listening through headphones.
For another, the differences I'm hearing are absolutely consistent across dozens of (non-scientific, non-blind) A/B/C comparisons, whereas any minor variation caused by failure to exactly duplicate the input each time would average out over multiple tests. I have observed this phenomenon many, many times in my compressor testing--I will become convinced of some particular quality or difference in a compressor, but then as I perform multiple comparison tests over a week or a month, I eventually realize that the difference was either "in my head", or due to some variation in the input signal.There's usually recording software bundled with audio interfaces, so when I pick up the new one I need, I should then be able to record audio clips.
- Apr 20, 2009
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Easy to rule out differences in room acoustics by using headphones instead of the bass rig.
Edit: CURSES. What he ^^ said.
But not the subjective differences brought about by expectation. "I hear the difference" is anecdotal; show me the numbers. For all the talk that this discussion always generates, I have yet to see any empirical evidence either way. There is lots of tossing around of technical-sounding jargon by proponents of both sides of the argument, but nothing quantitative.
My cables all sound the same to me. And yes, of course I know that's anecdotal as well...
As Uncle Frank said, shut up and play yer guitar.
I don't think it's so much the idea of being "unaware" as it is trying to quantify just what "affect" means. Most people if they know anything at all about cables are aware of the high frequency roll-off effect with long cables. But while this effect "sort of" applies to guitars, it really comes from the "hi fi' days or from PA practice where in fact it actually is just a low pass filter effect.
So I guess my point is that when audiophiles talk about all manner of subtlety that they think they are hearing between cables, generally the actual circuits involved are not complex filter networks. That leads to a conclusion that much of it is imaginary. An instrument, especially a passive instrument, IS a complex network and minor adjustment of certain circuit elements (as represented by the cable) can indeed have much farther reaching effects than a mere roll-off of highs.
And of course, this is where a spectrum analyzer can give some kind of quantitative measure that mere anecdotes can't. But the test can't just include the cable, one has to inject the signal magnetically into the pickup and read it out of the amp so that the entire "network" represented by the pickups, pots, cables, and input circuits are all in action.
And I'll add one more thing as well. Years ago I worked as a grunt for the great musical physics professor the late A. H. Benade (author of classic books on instrument physics). One point he always made to us was how amazing the human ear and eye are as devices of analysis! He'd show us cases where you could look at an oscilloscope trace and your eye could definitely tell something was there. Your ear could hear it too. But You could use instruments to try to measure it for days and find absolutely nothing showing up! Such is the sensitivity of the human "instrument"!
The problem with listener bias and placebo effect is that we cannot ignore or dismiss them when listening, even when we're completely aware of the specific influences and try to listen past the bias. The only way to be sure that you're even hearing an effect is a properly-controlled blind test. Once you've established that a difference truly exists, it becomes much easier to qualify that difference and attempt to determine what is causing it.
I have done blind tests where the only difference was the signal level - only about 1 dB (near the threshold of detection). I perceived a clear difference in the sound, even though the only change was in level. The mind will interpret all its inputs before yielding an impression, even visual and tactile. It really makes it impossible to judge without a controlled blind test. I'd try an ABX test before attempting to measure any differences, as it could save a lot of time even if you do hear the effect in the test.
I have done blind tests where the only difference was the signal level - only about 1 dB (near the threshold of detection). I perceived a clear difference in the sound, even though the only change was in level. The mind will interpret all its inputs before yielding an impression, even visual and tactile. It really makes it impossible to judge without a controlled blind test. I'd try an ABX test before attempting to measure any differences, as it could save a lot of time even if you do hear the effect in the test.
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