Hey Zach, you are spot on with that gear list and no I cannot justify any of that at this point or maybe any other point unless I actually am running the session from home which I can all but promise will not happen!!!!!!
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Hey session cats I got an amp question
- Thread starter dgravesweiner
- Start date
When I record at other studios I bring a single Mesa 15 and my 400. The key is getting the tube grind without pooping all over the drum mics. An 8-10 would poop all over the drums if it was at any volume and they were both in the same room.
When I record my own bass I like to mix DI and a low watt amp run pretty hard.
When I record my own bass I like to mix DI and a low watt amp run pretty hard.
Can't say that I ever used an amp more than a few times in the studio. While doing some recording at A&M Records way back, the head engineer there turned me on to this new fangled rack mount thingy called a SansAmp. After that, my preferred method of recording has always to run one channel direct and one channel through one of the early SansAmp units, usually set up to sound considerably warmer and dirtier than the direct signal. This simple setup gives you a lot of options when doing mix down.
True that most engineers/producers don't want to spend a lot of time working on bass sounds, but if you walk in with a simple setup and you know how to quickly dial in the sound you are after, I find most engineers are usually open to giving it a listen.
By the way, a couple years later, my SansAmp unit was stolen at a club. I replaced with one of the newer PSA-1 units. After A/Bing the newer unit with the older design at A&M on more than one occasion, we all agreed that the original design sounded much better on bass.
True that most engineers/producers don't want to spend a lot of time working on bass sounds, but if you walk in with a simple setup and you know how to quickly dial in the sound you are after, I find most engineers are usually open to giving it a listen.
By the way, a couple years later, my SansAmp unit was stolen at a club. I replaced with one of the newer PSA-1 units. After A/Bing the newer unit with the older design at A&M on more than one occasion, we all agreed that the original design sounded much better on bass.
R Baer said:
This is what I feel is probably typical for session players now. Rather than having your tone being dependent on your amp sound, you get your tone from rackmount gear or pedals, and present it to the engineer, already pre-sculpted and sort of "finished."
I should say too, that if you're a member of a band you probably have more leverage, as you may be slightly more "important" sonically speaking than the typical session guy on a hired gun type of thing.
in many recording circles, especially rock, r&b, and hip hop, using amps has made a big comeback. justin meldal-johnsen always uses a b-15 of some sort in the studio. kings of leon's new album has 90% of the bass recorded with a micro vr stack as the only track for bass.
but really, what matters is giving your all when you play. that beats all the studio navel contemplating in the world.
but really, what matters is giving your all when you play. that beats all the studio navel contemplating in the world.
JimmyM said:
Still they will record the Direct Track at the sometime, for many (more flexible) option later.
that is true, but one of the easiest things to do in the studio is put off decisions to be made later. One of the hardest is committing to a tone and sticking to it. Depending on your budget you may, as the bassist, be put on a second tier after the vocals and guitar in terms of getting tones. Re-amping is beautiful, I love being able to get my full amp sound in a big room with no drums or guitars to compete, but its also a time eater. I'm always prepared to sound good, be on time and in key. I have had too many recordings where my bass sounded like a very indistinct piece of fudge under the carpet.
But gosh the guitar sounded epic!
Maybe some session players do that, and if I were running from studio to studio all day maybe I would too. But in studios where I've been a hired gun of late they tend to have really nice signal chains on hand that they already know well... I've recently gone through Meek, Pultec, API, UI and a variety of compressors I can't identify nor do I own personally. Not that I don't have nice preamps, but when a good engineer is on home turf and knows his/her stuff and works interactively with me to get a great clean sound through their gear, why would I want to insist on an alternative, let alone take up time and space with a bass amp and open mics? It's much easier to punch into and clean up a single great-sounding direct track immediately if/when a fix is needed. We can always reamp with our favorite vintage amps and hot dog mics later when the room's quiet and the producer or engineer has the head space availabale, assuming it's the kind of project that can afford multiple bass tracks to begin with.
TomB said:
Yes I agree with you.
In my case the studios I work always have very excellent high end gears (preamp etc). And they all have Avalon 737 that almost always be the winner/final choice for my bass out of other preamps/compressors. Once or twice it was Neve 1073 + Urei 1176 or other.
I rarely but once or twice reamped my direct track to amp+cabs (usually an SVT or B15 or old Bassman. Miked w neumann condenser mic or AKG D112).
Years ago we recorded live, where me + the rhythm section play live together in the live room with bass amp + cabs placed inside one of some booth or in the same live room with me, partitioned from other (guitar) amps and drums.. Track bleed was occured.. Recorded into Studer 24 track analog reel. I admit that that kind of sessions have 'some' aura/feel that I don't find with digitally recording sessions now..
And I love analog recording too.. Kind of miss that era...
But gone are those days.. Now we have to face the reality that those era of 'expensive' big budget or 'troublesome' record sessions are gone... I have to adapt to the reality. That means record direct as now I do. And I wish I adapted well.
Just my 2 cents.
Yes I agree with you.
In my case the studios I work always has very excellent high end gears (preamp etc). And they all have Avalon 737 that almost always be the winner/final choice for my bass out of other preamps/compressors. Once or twice it was Neve 1073 + Urei 1176 or other.
I rarely but once or twice reamped my direct track to amp+cabs (usually an SVT or B15 or old Bassman. Miked w neumann condenser mic or AKG D112.
Years ago we recorded live, where me + the rhythm section play live together in the live room with bass amp + cabs placed inside one of some booth or in a live room behind me, partitioning with other (guitar) amps and drums.. Track bleed was occured.. Recorded into Studer 24 track analog reel. I admit that that kind of sessions have 'some' aura/feel that I don't find with digitally recording now..
And I love analog recording too..
But gone are those days.. Now we have to face the reality that those era of 'expensive' big budget or 'cumbersome' record sessions are gone... I have to adapt to the reality. That means rrcord direct as now I do. And I wish I adapted well.
Just my 2 cents.
I agree that live room recording is a whole other animal. It can be fun, too, though always stressful trying to get a whole take everybody likes and dealing with talkback chaos. It does give you a whole lot less flexibility to fix up later, that's for sure. But yes, it's always great to play with a band vs. playing w/a "track". Thanks for those observations, Dog... I too remember
.
TomB said:I agree that live room recording is a whole other animal. It can be fun, too, though always stressful trying to get a whole take everybody likes and dealing with talkback chaos. It does give you a whole lot less flexibility to fix up later, that's for sure. But yes, it's always great to play with a band vs. playing w/a "track". Thanks for those observations, Dog... I too remember
You are very welcome Tom
(I'm sorry that because of my English limitation, I have to keep edit my above comment again and again even after you quoted it
and it still contain some mistake surely... But I hope you/anybody who reads it got the point.... )
Up until a few years ago, I tracked everything direct. Still do it that way for commercial stuff.
If it's a project I care about, it's going to be a good mic on my SB12 fliptop and no DI. It's perfect with minmal twiddling.
If it's a project I care about, it's going to be a good mic on my SB12 fliptop and no DI. It's perfect with minmal twiddling.
yes they will, and then they usually go back to the original amp track for the majority of the sound after an hour or two of futzing with the di track
i'm way more down with the "commit" approach. reamping a clean di track does add options, but then you get done tracking and you have a million extra decisions you have to make because you've put everything off. that annoys me.
In many real studio tracking sessions (not record projects) the bass player has no idea of what will be layered on top of the rhythm tracks.
To make an assumption that a distorted bass or fancy lick will be perfect for this particular, jingle, sound track etc. is not good judgement if you don't have a full score that shows horn lines, synth, lead vocal, voice over area, what section will be used as the doughnut, etc.
I've engineered plenty of tracks with local player(s) only to have the 2" tape flown back to the mix house that is convenient to either the client or the producer. We had no idea which sonic direction the project was headed and the right decision was to play the chart as written and get a good clean signal so the producer can do with as he/she needs.
I stand by my original statement which is the vast majority of hired bass player session work is NOT for recording projects, and, that the goal for the guy paying the tab is quick, decent, moldable, and safe.
BTW, given the time and a good iso booth, I would always record a clean DI and an amp, and, if the player was so inclined, his particular box. In a big studio, I always had the assistent set up all the gear I thought we needed before the client arrived and the bass amp was kept in the tape storage / back room. Found it faster to present options to the producer/client if it was already set up. Never became that much of a fan of DI guitar as it seemed unecseeary unless the player had a amp tone I hated in which case we would record both.
To make an assumption that a distorted bass or fancy lick will be perfect for this particular, jingle, sound track etc. is not good judgement if you don't have a full score that shows horn lines, synth, lead vocal, voice over area, what section will be used as the doughnut, etc.
I've engineered plenty of tracks with local player(s) only to have the 2" tape flown back to the mix house that is convenient to either the client or the producer. We had no idea which sonic direction the project was headed and the right decision was to play the chart as written and get a good clean signal so the producer can do with as he/she needs.
I stand by my original statement which is the vast majority of hired bass player session work is NOT for recording projects, and, that the goal for the guy paying the tab is quick, decent, moldable, and safe.
BTW, given the time and a good iso booth, I would always record a clean DI and an amp, and, if the player was so inclined, his particular box. In a big studio, I always had the assistent set up all the gear I thought we needed before the client arrived and the bass amp was kept in the tape storage / back room. Found it faster to present options to the producer/client if it was already set up. Never became that much of a fan of DI guitar as it seemed unecseeary unless the player had a amp tone I hated in which case we would record both.
i think this aproach works great for sessions where your job is to read the chart, get in and out quickly, and not have any input whatsoever or care about it. but if i'm in a band, or if i'm cutting a session where i'm expected to have some impact on the overall direction of the music, i'll bring a bag of tricks and make my pitch for what i think sounds best. that would include a handful of basses, a b-15, and a bag of pedals. and if you get a distorted sound that's working, i say why not commit to it? one less thing you have to worry about on mixdown.
- Jun 25, 2006
- 3,226
- 341
- Disclosures
- Owner, Pike Amplification & 3Leaf Audio
Most of the sessions I do are recorded direct because it's the quickest to set up, and that's important when you have 30 minutes to track bass. A good direct box like a JDI will give you a workable clean sound that can be easily sculpted to fit the track during mixing. Now that I've been using a REDDI, I have no qualms about showing up to a session ampless.
But when I'm tracking bass at my place for someone, I always record through an amp or reamp. A good tube amp does things to the bass signal that can't be emulated with a Distressor, and 9 times out of 10 only the amp track is used. One of the best bass tones I've ever recorded was an old SVT through an Epifani 112 cab.
If miking an amp isn't an option, there are some plugins out there that sound pretty good. The Amplitube stuff isn't bad, and Avid just modeled a 1969 SVT for the expansion to their Eleven plugin that I'm dying to try.
But when I'm tracking bass at my place for someone, I always record through an amp or reamp. A good tube amp does things to the bass signal that can't be emulated with a Distressor, and 9 times out of 10 only the amp track is used. One of the best bass tones I've ever recorded was an old SVT through an Epifani 112 cab.
If miking an amp isn't an option, there are some plugins out there that sound pretty good. The Amplitube stuff isn't bad, and Avid just modeled a 1969 SVT for the expansion to their Eleven plugin that I'm dying to try.
- Jun 25, 2006
- 3,226
- 341
- Disclosures
- Owner, Pike Amplification & 3Leaf Audio
I agree. If the engineer can't make a B-15 sound good in a mix, the problem isn't with the B-15....
