High End Bass Amps- What do you like?

[jeff7bass]

A single driver in 2CF will be the same performance per driver as 2 drivers in 4 CF.

It has nothing about cramming drivers into spaces since the space per driver is the same.

Read LowWays post. I've read many like it over the 15 or so years I've been following bass forums. I also have these things on my head called EARS. Sometimes I think you enjoy being argumentative. There's been plenty of cab designers that came before you and after you. I found this;
"Why Individual Chambers for each Driver?"
The mid and woofer both need their own separate chambers in the box. Both the mid and woofer are designed to work in an enclosure of a specific size. If they are both in the same chamber, like most cheap speaker systems, then the enclosure size for the mid will be too large and performance will be lost. Also, the sound waves from the woofer can overpower the mid and distort it. " If the woofers movement can distort a mid, makes sense it can also distort another woofer.
DIY Speaker Building Guide

 

[DJ Bebop]

Cheers man

I'm into lite gear right now however, I'd be proud to haul that around

 

[lomo]

[QUOTE="jeff7bass, post: 24408325, member: I also have these things on my head called EARS. [/QUOTE]
My ears tell me my pair of SW 15s sound exactly like the 215 I played. And my old pair of GB Neox 112s sounded like the Neox 212 they replaced, as physics say they should. Forgive my skepticism, but unless you are listening ONLY with your ears (and are blinded as to what you 're playing through, then you (like all humans) are biased. When I see an oscilloscope tracing from 2 mic'ed setups prove your point, then I will readily and happily believe the physics is wrong. Happy Labour Day ;-)

 

[Sands]

Well, the facts are clear here. I'm down for a SW115, maybe a SW112 or another SW115.

Someday, maybe some bright DIYer will find a way to build a better design, market it, deliver it, support it, build a loyal following, and create a legacy that surpasses it. Putting all that together will take a very gifted person - no more likely a gifted and committed team who brings their hearts to their craft every day.

It could happen. It's hard to imagine. I hope, if it does, that those people have the grace and patience to match their craft, as I have seen and experienced from Mesa for going on 30 years.

God Bless America.

 

[agedhorse]

Read LowWays post. I've read many like it over the 15 or so years I've been following bass forums. I also have these things on my head called EARS. Sometimes I think you enjoy being argumentative. There's been plenty of cab designers that came before you and after you. I found this;
"Why Individual Chambers for each Driver?"
The mid and woofer both need their own separate chambers in the box. Both the mid and woofer are designed to work in an enclosure of a specific size. If they are both in the same chamber, like most cheap speaker systems, then the enclosure size for the mid will be too large and performance will be lost. Also, the sound waves from the woofer can overpower the mid and distort it. " If the woofers movement can distort a mid, makes sense it can also distort another woofer.
DIY Speaker Building Guide

I'm not being argumentative, I'm being factual and science based.

You are taking an unrelated concept (woofer and mid driver) which are dissimilar drivers operating in dissimilar bands and drawing an incorrect conclusion for identical drivers operating in identical bands. This is where your logic diverges from reality.

If you recall, I never recommend dissimilar drivers or drivers covering different bandwidths from sharing the same air space.

Identical drivers operate identically in separate or shared air space, and the math backs up measured performance too.

 

[Rockbobmel]

The mid and woofer both need their own separate chambers in the box. Both the mid and woofer are designed to work in an enclosure of a specific size. If they are both in the same chamber, like most cheap speaker systems, then the enclosure size for the mid will be too large and performance will be lost. Also, the sound waves from the woofer can overpower the mid and distort it. " If the woofers movement can distort a mid, makes sense it can also distort another woofer.

You are using a totally different scenario. He is talking about a standalone 112 x 2 vs a 212 same internal volume. What your example points to is isolating a mid driver from the woofer compartment like this.

 

[Rockbobmel]

He beat me to it.

 

[jeff7bass]

You are using a totally different scenario. He is talking about a standalone 112 x 2 vs a 212 same internal volume. What your example points to is isolating a mid driver from the woofer compartment like this. View attachment 3972934

I'm aware the example I gave suggests a midrange speaker can be distorted by the movement of the woofer. Tell me it's impossible for distortion to occur with two high powered woofers (pushed to high levels) within the same cabinet space, then prove it hold true for all 212's. You can't and that's the point. Just because SOME builders may have figured it out ($$) doesn't mean they all have. If I buy two off the shelf cheaper 112's, it won't be a problem. If I buy the same brand's 212, it might be a problem. I noticed how all of you naysayers have ignored what LowWay said about having to EQ and filter out unwanted frequencies from his 212 to make it sound like like a pair of his 112's from the same "high-end" builder. Clearly it's not one size fits all so y'all need to get over yourselves. Common sense and comprehension is required so take off your engineering caps and pay attention.

 

[Rockbobmel]

Quit telling us what we'all gotta do. No one is telling you so.

 

[Sands]

Listening is a powerful skill. I had to learn a lot about listening, as a hard headed young man. I had a few harsh (putting it mildly) wake up calls to make me look into my listening skills, what it meant to listen, to test it, to put it into practice, before I eventually realized that there was a lot more to gain from listening than from talking. This is a good example. I personally gained absolutely nothing from sharing this.

Eventually I learned about the difference between dialogue and discussion, and then things really started happening. The seemingly impossible became reality. Repeatedly.

 

[agedhorse]

I'm aware the example I gave suggests a midrange speaker can be distorted by the movement of the woofer. Tell me it's impossible for distortion to occur with two high powered woofers (pushed to high levels) within the same cabinet space, then prove it hold true for all 212's. You can't and that's the point. Just because SOME builders may have figured it out ($$) doesn't mean they all have. If I buy two off the shelf cheaper 112's, it won't be a problem. If I buy the same brand's 212, it might be a problem. I noticed how all of you naysayers have ignored what LowWay said about having to EQ and filter out unwanted frequencies from his 212 to make it sound like like a pair of his 112's from the same "high-end" builder. Clearly it's not one size fits all so y'all need to get over yourselves. Common sense and comprehension is required so take off your engineering caps and pay attention.

Since I'm in the unique position of having designed a lot of speakers over the years, there's no shortage of common sense and comprehension. In fact both common sense and comprehension reinforce that there is no difference.

One person claiming there is a difference without knowing if the cabinets are actually tuned the same is like claiming that one car is faster than another (of the same make and model) because they are different colors... without knowing what's "under the hood", there's no way to know... BUT if they have the same engines and drive trains, they are likely to be darn near identical in performance. Just painting a car red doesn't make it faster.

 

[Wicked G]

Since I'm in the unique position of having designed a lot of speakers over the years, there's no shortage of common sense and comprehension. In fact both common sense and comprehension reinforce that there is no difference.

One person claiming there is a difference without knowing if the cabinets are actually tuned the same is like claiming that one car is faster than another (of the same make and model) because they are different colors... without knowing what's "under the hood", there's no way to know... BUT if they have the same engines and drive trains, they are likely to be darn near identical in performance. Just painting a car red doesn't make it faster.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree. My car is red and it is definitely faster. So there.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I've been a fan of Eden amps for a while. I don't know if they're really considered high end or not, but they're pretty solid beasts. I've played them exclusively for a while. I've owned other brands- Trace Elliot, Peavey, Warwick and some others I've long forgotten.

But I'm curious about what else is out there on the higher end of the spectrum. It's quite hard to test any of these out, as your local Guitar Center doesn't exactly stock a wide variety. I'm a couple hours from Bass Central, but I prefer to buy used. I'd like some recommendations, as that's probably all I will have to go off of if I end up moving that way.

I've never gotten to play a Glockenklang. They seem super nice to me. I'm also interested in Darkglass. But I'm really open to hearing about anything.

I am super knowledgeable about guitar amps, but bass amps are a bit different.

Thanks!

Frankly, I still enjoy my Eden gear, but never considered it to top of the mark gear. I especially like the cabs which are tuned very well, durable, and easy to move about. As for the amps. It's pretty easy to dial in useful tones that sit well in the mix thanks to the 3 band parametric mid range EQ. Truth be told, IMO Eden shines when used in an ensemble setting. Using it with no other musicians, not so much.

 

[JimmyM]

Since I'm in the unique position of having designed a lot of speakers over the years, there's no shortage of common sense and comprehension. In fact both common sense and comprehension reinforce that there is no difference.

One person claiming there is a difference without knowing if the cabinets are actually tuned the same is like claiming that one car is faster than another (of the same make and model) because they are different colors... without knowing what's "under the hood", there's no way to know... BUT if they have the same engines and drive trains, they are likely to be darn near identical in performance. Just painting a car red doesn't make it faster.

Then why are all the fast cars red?



This thread got so interesting I had to read where it started. So the guy uses one example of one company's 212 and 112 and calls it the rule? LOL! Yeah, OK.

 

[Al Kraft]

The mid and woofer both need their own separate chambers in the box. Both the mid and woofer are designed to work in an enclosure of a specific size. If they are both in the same chamber, like most cheap speaker systems, then the enclosure size for the mid will be too large and performance will be lost. Also, the sound waves from the woofer can overpower the mid and distort it. " If the woofers movement can distort a mid, makes sense it can also distort another woofer.

The case you cited here is one I think all speaker designers would agree with - when separate sized drivers covering differing frequency spectrums share the same acoustic space in a cabinet (i.e. are not isolated) you will likely have interference that compromises the performance. That, however, is a totally different case from the question being addressed here - two identical drivers sharing an appropriately sized acoustic space.

 

[jojobean39]

As much as I enjoy reading an argument about physics (I really do, I'm an electrical engineer and my senior design many years back was a tube amp), but let's get back to giving me a list of gear for which I need to start GASing.

 

[Sands]

I'd wager building cabinets is very enjoyable and satisfying work. Making top tier stuff? Mind blown.

From what I've read, there are some proven formulas / concepts available that a diy'er or start up can leverage to make life easier (and less expensive).

It isn't clear to me, but some may have found approaches that somehow break away from the formula. But I am far from convinced that the formula is wrong. Seems the opposite is true.

So I am leaning towards the possibility that maybe sometimes things can work outside the bounds of generally accepted theory. I can live with that. The problem with that is, of course, doing it and then, even more so, repeating it with other shapes, sizes, materials, and or components.

Doing that would seem to represent a breakthrough that hasn't actually happened. At least not yet. And that is what makes this so great. Maybe it has. Maybe it's about to! Good luck!

 

[JimmyM]

As much as I enjoy reading an argument about physics (I really do, I'm an electrical engineer and my senior design many years back was a tube amp), but let's get back to giving me a list of gear for which I need to start GASing.

I think 5 or 6 pages is plenty enough for you, sir

 

[Sands]

As much as I enjoy reading an argument about physics (I really do, I'm an electrical engineer and my senior design many years back was a tube amp), but let's get back to giving me a list of gear for which I need to start GASing.

I'd like a Boogie SW cab with a smaller footprint than the current line.

 

[LowWay]

I'd like to add a couple thoughts and see if @Jim Bergantino has anything to add.

2 NXT112s let me hit a tone I really liked when driven by my bass and a Forté HP with minimal tone shaping. Just a little filtering and very light EQ.

1 NXT212 required more extreme filtering and heavier eq to achieve the same goal with the same bass and head.

I don't need an oscilloscope. I don't claim that these speakers were perfectly the same tone after the tweaking, but I have been a bassist for 36 years, and have been a professional CD mastering engineer, and have recorded and co-produced many records, some of which have hit national labels, major network TV shows, and art house films with international distribution. I can hear these cabinets sound different. I don't claim this makes a rule that will always be true for all 112s vs 212s.

I don't think we know for sure that these were designed to be the same. They both sound good. They just sound different.

In the end, if you see my recent post in the club bergantino thread, I found my optimum sound by using 4 NXTs stacked 2x2, bottom cabinets had tweeters off, top cabinets had tweeters on, and the 2 stacks were angled in a slight V pointing at each other. This sounded bigger and fuller tan any other configuration I could assemble with 4 112s and a single 212.

I did not want this outcome. I wanted it to sound great with a PJB 800 watt head and 2 C4s. Way smaller and cheaper. Then I wanted it to sound better with the Forté and 4 PJB C4s. Then I wanted it to sound better with the Forté HP and 2 NXT 112s. And then I wanted it to sound better with 1 112 and 1 212. Then I wanted it to sound better with 3 112s. Then I begrudgingly found it sounded best with 4 112s. I didn't love returning all that gear. I have a 4 hour round trip drive tomorrow to return the 212. My goal was small, light, but no sacrificing sound quality. I didn't want 4 $900 cabinets and a $1600 head/bag/foot switch. That's crazy money for a part time amateur rig, and I'm not rich. But this is probably my last amp, and damn it, I want it to sound good. And you know what? It sounds amazing, and I'm legit concerned about my sanity spending like this. Especially since I've gotten in the queue for a new Bordwell.

There is obviously some subjectivity to my ears opposed to a frequency plot, but I know what I want to hear, and I think I have the experience to hear the differences.

None the less, today I tried many configurations of arranging the speakers, with a goal of wanting to keep just 3 112s, and the final rig is 4 112s. It does sound better at all volumes. And it will never not be loud enough.