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High Mass Bridges vs. Vintage Bridges

#61
Turnaround I really appreciate your concise summary.
I'm mulling this whole issue now 'cause I have the urge to "change something" on a VM Squier Jazz I haven't even gotten yet :p
Its an Ebay purchase and I wanted to play around with it to see what diff pups bridges etc make.

I read this entire thread and am thinking about this through lens of playing both Acoustic guitar and E Bass [and a little ABG].
In the art of making fine Acoustic guitars, the luthier seeks to involve the body of the guitar - get a solid transfer of energy to each component - the bridge being of paramount importance.

I had a Cruise bass with 2Tek and I always wondered if the 2Tek design erred on the side of too much isolation. Think through it carefully: the string energy does not transfer readily to the body in that design because the whole massive bridge is "floated" in the cavity, only making contact at its mount points, so [and this is what a lot of people notice] you get a monster sustain it seems because the string energy is caught between the bridge and the fret, or nut as the case may be, and depending on the mass of the string it can seemingly go on for a LOOONNNNNNNGGGG time. I had to develop my playing technique to compensate against that ringing sustain, which to me overemphasized high/mids at the expense of the bottom.

It seems to me that more engagement of the body would benefit low tones unless the body composition somehow interferes with that frequency range.

Also, I don't see in this thread a discussion of Through-Body versus 'bridge only' stringing. Again it would seem that through-body favors low frequencies and is the enemy of the rest of the spectrum. Your thoughts??
 
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#62
Kudos to Turnaround from me as well!

I have both on my basses, the USA Jazz & P have the HMV and the MIM P has the vintage(stock) bridge. I agree there is a slight bit more sustain on the MIA. I have all of them strung with Chromes(toploaded on the MIA's). It might make a bit more difference if they were run string-thru, I dunno. My preference is for the vintage bridge, especially since I have them top-loaded anyway.
 
#63
Turnaround said:
We go around on this question a few times a year. By now we should understand the variables and the subjective reactions. I will summarize.

A High Mass Bridge will tend to transfer less energy to the body of an instrument than a Low Mass Bridge (I will use the acnonyms HMB and LMB from here on). There are two main consequences of this effect.

First is that the string will vibrate longer if its energy is not being drained into the body of the instrument. That is to say a HMB will "sustain" longer than a LMB.

Secondly, if less energy is being transmitted to the instrument body, then the body will have less effect on the sound produced. So if you are looking for a natural woodiness in your tone, a HMB is probably the wrong way to go.

Conversely, the more a bridge is able to transfer energy to the body of the instrument, the more "woody" the tone (if the body is wood).

A Fender Precision bass is a good platform for illustrating these differences. By it's very nature the Precision is an instrument with a pronounced midrange. That midrange gives the instrument it's "throatiness", like saying "ahh" with your tongue pulled back into you throat as opposed to saying "ahh" with your tongue sticking out.

That sound is nicely enhanced when the resonant quality of the wood is exploited. That indicates the use of a LMB.

Back when I was in my teens and Rock was getting away from Rock and Roll and into the "heavy" stuff, a lot of players were looking for a sound with more sustain, more punch, more drive. And HMB's were born. Served us well too.

So which is better? That's an invalid question. Better for whom/what? Better for sound? Sustain? Looks? Weight? Even these questions are invalid.

Sound: I like a woody throaty sound. Ted likes a hard, driving sound.

Sustain: I like to play with flats and often use palm muting. Joe wants his to sustain forever.

Punch: I want something warm and caressing. Al wants each note to whack the listener in the chest.

So in the end we know there are differences in behaviour of HMB's and LMB's. And we know we have differing tastes.

So the right answer to the question "should I buy a high mass bridge is "definitely maybe".
Click to expand...

As Gilligan would of said, "Thanks Professor!". :hyper:
 
#65
michaeln said:
Today my set of Hipshot HB6C 1/2" tuners showed up and I put them on. Yes, there are 16 unused screw holes showing on the rear of the headstock.

I don't care.

The HB6Cs don't quite fill the full diameter of the hole in the headstock. I wrapped the cylindrical nuts with black electrical tape to shim up the diameter difference. It doesn't show and it will be workable until I come up with something better to use as shims.

The combination of the MUCH lighter Hipshot Ultralight tuners and the somewhat heavier bridge has done wonders for the balance of the bass, and I am quite pleased about that.
Click to expand...

I had an issue with a mod where I had to shim the hole for the tuner. I tried electrical tape, but the tuner ferrule kept slipping out of the hole. I used painter's tape inside the hole and around the tuner ferrule. With a little dab of super glue, it held, nicely.
 
#66
Zapp said:
Also, I don't see in this thread a discussion of Through-Body versus 'bridge only' stringing. Again it would seem that through-body favors low frequencies and is the enemy of the rest of the spectrum. Your thoughts??
Click to expand...

I experimented with a few mods where I added thru-body stringing for the hopes of better sustain. It might've added some sustain, but I found the strings to be more rigid. Almost like they had less play??? It seemed to make slapping a bit more difficult. I'm not sure if it is that way the string has to bend like 90 degrees??? However, we're talking a minute difference here.
 
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#67
bassgod76 said:
I experimented with a few mods where I added thru-body stringing for the hopes of better sustain. It might've added some sustain, but I found the strings to be more rigid. Almost like they had less play??? It seemed to make slapping a bit more difficult. I'm not sure if it is that way the string has to bend like 90 degrees??? However, we're talking a minute difference here.
Click to expand...

I'm interested in this because I am doing some precise investigation into what is happening here.

You say the strings seem more "rigid". Can you describe in more detail? Do they feel stiffer - that is they bend less from side to side when plucking? Or do you perceive more end-to-end tension on the strings? Are they the same thing?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I would like you to describe in more detail what it is that you are sensing.
 
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#68
Turnaround said:
I'm interested in this because I am doing some precise investigation into what is happening here.

You say the strings seem more "rigid". Can you describe in more detail? Do they feel stiffer - that is they bend less from side to side when plucking? Or do you perceive more end-to-end tension on the strings? Are they the same thing?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I would like you to describe in more detail what it is that you are sensing.
Click to expand...

It seems like there's more side to side tension. I'm not a physicist, but something about the extreme bend at the bridge adds tension. My luthier affirmed my inquiry, and said that, that's why a lot of slap/funk guys prefer top loaded stringing. Or if they use string-thru, they go with a lighter gage string like super slinky.

The whole string-thru theory is cool, but isn't worth the mod time.
 
#69
bassgod76 said:
I had an issue with a mod where I had to shim the hole for the tuner. I tried electrical tape, but the tuner ferrule kept slipping out of the hole.
Click to expand...

With the Hipshot HB6 the ferrule can't really slip out of the hole. They aren't conventional splined "press fit" ferrules, instead the ferrule is internally threaded and threads onto the body of the tuner, capturing the headstock wood in between. A single screw then goes through the body into the wood (from the back) to keep it from rotating.

41svJEwtotL.jpg
 
#72
michaeln said:
With the Hipshot HB6 the ferrule can't really slip out of the hole. They aren't conventional splined "press fit" ferrules, instead the ferrule is internally threaded and threads onto the body of the tuner, capturing the headstock wood in between. A single screw then goes through the body into the wood (from the back) to keep it from rotating.
Click to expand...

Not to go OT, but have you had good experiences with the HB6, and can it be a drop-in mod for a MIM P bass?
 
#73
Legattabass said:
Not to go OT, but have you had good experiences with the HB6, and can it be a drop-in mod for a MIM P bass?
Click to expand...

I have only had them installed for a few days. They work very very smoothly (unlike the stock Squier tuners which worked, but not smoothly) and the weight reduction on the headstock is pretty significant.

They aren't a drop-in mod for any bass that has open gear tuners. You have to drill an extra hole for the mounting screw, and the small size of the tuner body will likely mean you will have 16 exposed, unused screw holes showing on the back of the headstock.

I don't know how closely the ferrule will fit in your headstock, you'd have to remove a tuner or ferrule and measure the diameter of the hole. There are two versions of the HB6 in terms of sizing... one has a 3/8" post and the other is a 1/2" post. The outer diameter of the ferrule for the 3/8" model is .546", and for the 1/2" one it's .662".

There is a dimensioned diagram at:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#74
michaeln said:
I have only had them installed for a few days. They work very very smoothly (unlike the stock Squier tuners which worked, but not smoothly) and the weight reduction on the headstock is pretty significant.

They aren't a drop-in mod for any bass that has open gear tuners. You have to drill an extra hole for the mounting screw, and the small size of the tuner body will likely mean you will have 16 exposed, unused screw holes showing on the back of the headstock.

I don't know how closely the ferrule will fit in your headstock, you'd have to remove a tuner or ferrule and measure the diameter of the hole. There are two versions of the HB6 in terms of sizing... one has a 3/8" post and the other is a 1/2" post. The outer diameter of the ferrule for the 3/8" model is .546", and for the 1/2" one it's .662".

There is a dimensioned diagram at:

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Weight and tuner quality aren't so much of an issue here that I'd go through the work of drilling new holes and filling old holes.

Funny story; somehow the black HB7 drop ins I used broke - literally fell apart - and so I'm back to stock chrome. Works for me.
______________________________________

To actually contribute to this discussion: I use the Gotoh 201 bridge, and I find that while it increases sustain and attack, I have felt no decrease in string vibration in the body. Which, given the comments in this thread, is puzzling.
 
#75
Legattabass said:
Thanks for the info. Weight and tuner quality aren't so much of an issue here that I'd go through the work of drilling new holes and filling old holes.

Funny story; somehow the black HB7 drop ins I used broke - literally fell apart - and so I'm back to stock chrome. Works for me.
______________________________________

To actually contribute to this discussion: I use the Gotoh 201 bridge, and I find that while it increases sustain and attack, I have felt no decrease in string vibration in the body. Which, given the comments in this thread, is puzzling.
Click to expand...


Wow. I have HB7s for my MIM P, and never had a problem. You're the first person I met who complained about Hipsot tuners. Maybe Hipshot is slipping in quality???
 
#76
bassgod76 said:
Wow. I have HB7s for my MIM P, and never had a problem. You're the first person I met who complained about Hipsot tuners. Maybe Hipshot is slipping in quality???
Click to expand...

The 'bracket' for lack of a better word (the 2 arches that hold the tuning key in place) sheared off on one side, and the key came loose. Then it just fell apart. This happened on 2 of the 4 keys.

I dunno if maybe I got an inferior or knockoff set. The black metal wasn't glossy; the surface was sort of matte, and I noticed the black color scraped off before all was said and done, revealing brass or another brass-colored metal underneath.

The purchase said hipshot, so I don't know. I've been afraid to drop another $70 on a set, just to have it fail.
 
#77
After having burned an hour or so at GC this weekend playing every flavor of Jazz they had on the racks, I noticed a difference not in sound between the bigger and smaller bridges, but in "stability," for lack of a better word. The bridges which featured some kind of channels for the string saddles to ride in felt better to me in back to back playing. The Vintage style bridges allowed the strings, especially E, to move around too much. I do dig in and play with some heavy fingers, but it was still noticeable. Given that, the Squier CV Jazz felt better to play than all the rest until you got up in price range to the Geddy Lee version.

I couldn't attribute any sound differences to the bridges.
 
#79
metalmariachi said:
But really, at stage volume with a band, your audience won’t know the difference.

MM
Click to expand...

An expensive, beautifull and luxurious car can drive you to the office and back home, and an ugly cheap one too. Its not about the basic function the reason people choose a thing.
Probably the audience wont know the difference between an Squier and a Fender. But choosing your bass gear is not for the audience, is for feel yourself more happy with.
 
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