So I see a lot of 500 watt combos but then the RMS is only 250 watts or so. So Anyone know what Bass Combo has the highest RMS Watts without having to use an extensioncabinet?
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Highest RMS Watts Combo
- Thread starter magic8161
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Power head: 800W RMS (AES Standard)
Power cabinet: 450W RMS (AES Standard)
Weight: 15 Kg - 33,06 lbs
Invalid Link Removed:
Power head: 800W RMS (AES Standard)
Power cabinet: 500W RMS (AES Standard)
Weight: 8,2 Kg - 18 lbs
In both cases you need an external cab to get the full 800 W of the head, but it's not too bad
Power head: 800W RMS (AES Standard)
Power cabinet: 450W RMS (AES Standard)
Weight: 15 Kg - 33,06 lbs
Invalid Link Removed:
Power head: 800W RMS (AES Standard)
Power cabinet: 500W RMS (AES Standard)
Weight: 8,2 Kg - 18 lbs
In both cases you need an external cab to get the full 800 W of the head, but it's not too bad
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There are a LOT of combos that are in the 500 watt RMS range, most require the use of an second (extension) cabinet to get the full rated output because for many players the convenience of a smaller, lighter combo is a huge benefit and for those who need more (or for a gig that needs more), adding an extension cabinet provides a scaleable solution along with the convenience of a combo.
Mills Custom Amps have 2 combos with the option of 2x12 - 500 / 1000 Watt (2 Ohm Load)
Compass - Compass — Mills Custom
Telegraph - Telegraph — Mills Custom
Compass - Compass — Mills Custom
Telegraph - Telegraph — Mills Custom
While we are able to cram more and more power into smaller and smaller spaces, the same doesn't hold true for speakers. At some point, barring some new speaker technology on the same order as the leap from tubes to solid state, there comes a point when combo amp power will be limited by combo size speaker area.
Most combo's that accept an extension cab have a reduced power rating due to operating into an 8 Ohm load. They reach their full potential at 4 Ohms, with the extension. This is not only by design but somewhat by necessity due to the speaker restrictions.
If your combo by itself is running at max power (minimum impedance) the option of plugging in a second cab is gone. That may not be a very popular scheme for people who want/need the second cab option, but also for manufacturers hoping to sell a matching cab.
Furthermore, even if the 8 Ohm to 4 Ohm difference doubles the power, the result is only a slight increase in loudness. Double the power does not get you anywhere near twice as loud. But adding a second equivilent cab not only gets you an effective doubling of loudness it also gives the little bit extra from you amp.
There are some of what you seek out there. But those options are limited. GK on the other hand does (or did recently) sell a line of combos that runs at max power. The option of adding a second, third or fourth cab is possible because each cab has it's own internal amp and the signal is chained together at low level. So while they recognize that there is a desire for maxed out combos, they did it in a way that leaves open the extension cab option.
Often there is little to no benefit to feeding the internal speaker any more than 250W. Sure some can handle a bit more power, but I would bet many of them would not put the extra power to very good use. At some point the driver will start to compress.
I have an older GK 700RB/112 combo. It puts 225W into the internal speaker and makes 380W if you connect an 8 ohm extension cab. Using just the combo is rarely enough in a cover band, but I don't ever remember pushing it to clipping. Rather at some point it starts getting compressed, so turning the amp up further does not seem to really increase the volume, it just changes the feel in a way that I find undesirable.
I have never run out of headroom when I added an 8 ohm extension cab, but it would really not make any practical difference if I could feed 380W to the built-in speaker. First of all, I am almost certain the stock speaker would be destroyed by this much power.
IMHO it makes perfect sense that combo amps don't make full power unless you add an extension cab. Perhaps it's confusing to people with low experience levels. Seasoned pros will generally understand what is going on, and take advantage of it.
IMHO. Instead of focusing on how much power an amp makes, find a rig that plays loud enough to meet your needs and expectations. SPL comes from a combination of power and the speaker's sensitivity rating.
While 225W into the internal 12 of my GK combo is often not enough. I have found that 250W into an Eden D210XLT is typically more than enough. The extra 25W is insignificant as it represents less than a 0.5dB change.
The D210XLT was a rather efficient cab though. It had a 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, so with 250W the calculated SPL is almost 127dB. I don't have the Sensitivity spec of the 12" in my GK combo. If we assume it's similar to the Neo 112, the calculated SPL with 225W is about 121.5dB.
My impression is I need about 124dB to meet most of my SPL requirements. So the Eden at almost 127dB exceeded my needs, and the GK at 121.5dB sometimes fell short.
Back in the day, I could have bought an Eden Metro. AFAIK, the Metro is essentially an Eden D210XLT with and added rack sleeve and amp. I believe the Metro delivered 240W to the internal 8 ohm speaker system, so the calculated SPL is 126.8dB...essentially 127dB.
If you add one 8 ohm extensions the Metro is rated for 400W. With three 8 ohm extensions it's rated at 600W. The idea is a modular rig that can be scaled to any situation. The calculated SPL of a Metro pushing the internal speaker and three D210XLTs is 136.8dB.
I did not buy the Metro primarily due to size and weight. It's rather large, heavy, and cumbersome. That is often the price you pay for loud.
I have an older GK 700RB/112 combo. It puts 225W into the internal speaker and makes 380W if you connect an 8 ohm extension cab. Using just the combo is rarely enough in a cover band, but I don't ever remember pushing it to clipping. Rather at some point it starts getting compressed, so turning the amp up further does not seem to really increase the volume, it just changes the feel in a way that I find undesirable.
I have never run out of headroom when I added an 8 ohm extension cab, but it would really not make any practical difference if I could feed 380W to the built-in speaker. First of all, I am almost certain the stock speaker would be destroyed by this much power.
IMHO it makes perfect sense that combo amps don't make full power unless you add an extension cab. Perhaps it's confusing to people with low experience levels. Seasoned pros will generally understand what is going on, and take advantage of it.
IMHO. Instead of focusing on how much power an amp makes, find a rig that plays loud enough to meet your needs and expectations. SPL comes from a combination of power and the speaker's sensitivity rating.
While 225W into the internal 12 of my GK combo is often not enough. I have found that 250W into an Eden D210XLT is typically more than enough. The extra 25W is insignificant as it represents less than a 0.5dB change.
The D210XLT was a rather efficient cab though. It had a 103dB 1W/1m sensitivity rating, so with 250W the calculated SPL is almost 127dB. I don't have the Sensitivity spec of the 12" in my GK combo. If we assume it's similar to the Neo 112, the calculated SPL with 225W is about 121.5dB.
My impression is I need about 124dB to meet most of my SPL requirements. So the Eden at almost 127dB exceeded my needs, and the GK at 121.5dB sometimes fell short.
Back in the day, I could have bought an Eden Metro. AFAIK, the Metro is essentially an Eden D210XLT with and added rack sleeve and amp. I believe the Metro delivered 240W to the internal 8 ohm speaker system, so the calculated SPL is 126.8dB...essentially 127dB.
If you add one 8 ohm extensions the Metro is rated for 400W. With three 8 ohm extensions it's rated at 600W. The idea is a modular rig that can be scaled to any situation. The calculated SPL of a Metro pushing the internal speaker and three D210XLTs is 136.8dB.
I did not buy the Metro primarily due to size and weight. It's rather large, heavy, and cumbersome. That is often the price you pay for loud.
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I had an EDEN WT400 traveler plus and two D210XLT cabs. For the majority of my work I used one cabinet and it was plenty!
Only when presented with an outdoor gig would I bring along the 2nd cab. They were 68lbs a piece, as I recall, and they were formidable. I also had a D112XLT but it fell way short compared to the 2x10" cabs.
The WT 400/D210XLT combo was in essence a Metro in separates except I don't recall the WT 400 being able to handle a 2 OHM load. But I agree, the D210XLT was a great cabinet and, IMHO, Eden's most practical...for the times. But times have really changed.
I don't know if the Metro was reliable at 2 ohms, but the specs I posted are from the OM, which can be found here: General Description; Description Of The Front Panel Controls; Input Jack Channel; Operating Characteristics - Eden METRO DC-210XLT Combo Operation Manual [Page 3] | ManualsLib
Here's a screen grab of the relevant part of p. 3.
I believe the specs changed a bit over the amps production run.
I get a bit of a chuckle from, "It weighs only 85lbs." IMHO, it was a rather big and cumbersome piece to move around.
Read Agedhorse's post again. This is exactly what I do. I have a Carvin MB-12 combo. 250 watts rms with an 8-ohm extension cab. It is good for most gigs. If I need low end extension, I have a 1X15 ported cab that I stack the combo on to get me to the next larger category of gigs if I have to carry the room. If I need more than that, usually the PA is large enough to take it from there and I can scale back to a direct box and hot-spot-style monitor on stage.
Remember: it is not how much power that the power section of the amplifier can drive. It is the system: amp power, efficiency of the enclosure, frequency tailoring of the combo and any extension cab, etc. Also remember that to get to what most ears perceive as twice as loud requires at least ten times the power, along with cabs that can handle the additional power. And if you are looking for low end extension, drivers that can handle the added excursion to move enough air to be able to actually hear it. So to get significantly louder than what my MB12 can push with my extension cab, I would need 2,500 watts and the exponentially more expensive drivers and cabinet with proper design to handle it. So an 800 watt combo is not going to be that much louder than a 500 watt combo, which is hardly any louder than a 250 watt combo. If you must have that much wattage on stage, you are better off with separate head and cabinet(s), due to the weight involved and in getting something sturdy enough to perform cleanly.
Chasing the wattage wars without the exponentially more expensive funds and willingness to haul bigger equipment to match gets a player nowhere.
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It's a 500w amp. If you want it to push out 500 watts, put a four ohm speaker in it.
But you won't notice a difference. Besides that it might not sound as good.
Oh, yea. Heavy stuff. I had a D410T before I bought the 2x10s for some physical "relief".
The D410T was a brick and I lived in a 3rd floor apt at the time (no elevator). But I was young and strong. Now, perish the thought of huffing that gear around. In my present state, anything over 35 lbs is too heavy.
Yup! Probably just "improve" the combo's fart power rating.
I hear you about the Metro. Somehow, adding a 30lbs of amp to a 50+lbs cab….. yeah probably one of the loudest combos made, but the weight rivals most 410 cabs…
+ one on Eden D series cabs. A little heavy by to day’s standards, but boy do they sound great on stage.
Consider the Fender Rumble 800 combo. 400 stand-alone watts into 2-10s and 800 watts at 4 ohms w/ext cab.
I’ve never needed an extension and it’s very full featured.
I’ve never needed an extension and it’s very full featured.
GK has some combos, like my Legacy 212 combo, that does 800W without an extension cabinet.
I think the Markbass CMD Super Combo K1 is the combo with highest "density". It uses the LM Ninja head (1000W in 4 Ohms, 600 in 8 Ohms) into a single 12" transducer (+mid and high driver).
So a 1×12" with 600W internally...
Markbass CMD Super Combo K1 review
So a 1×12" with 600W internally...
Markbass CMD Super Combo K1 review
An alternate solution would be a powered FRFR speaker/PA speaker. My Headrush 112 is based on the Alto TS312. According to Alto the Peak and RMS figures are:
2000 W Peak (1300W Low Freq Woofer and 700W High Freq driver)
1000 W continuous RMS (650W LF + 350W HF)
The well-regarded QSC K12 series will perform similarly and has a bass amp simulator in the DSP.
That's quite a bit of juice going to a single speaker. That said, I don't think it's any louder than my previous Carvin BX700 or Markbass LM2 both of which ran 300W @ 8ohms through my old Markbass 1x12 cab.
2000 W Peak (1300W Low Freq Woofer and 700W High Freq driver)
1000 W continuous RMS (650W LF + 350W HF)
The well-regarded QSC K12 series will perform similarly and has a bass amp simulator in the DSP.
That's quite a bit of juice going to a single speaker. That said, I don't think it's any louder than my previous Carvin BX700 or Markbass LM2 both of which ran 300W @ 8ohms through my old Markbass 1x12 cab.
For one to accept this spec as valid, one would have to believe that Alto has developed a 12" cone driver that dissipates 650 watts RMS and a compression driver that dissipates 350 watts; the former seems highly unlikely and the latter is just plainly not possible. It's pure specsmanship, IMHO. Alto's not unique in this, of course, but claims like this make me suspicious of every product that has their logo on it.
