Double Bass Highly recommended DVD

[Ed Fuqua]

BOOST - It's interesting that you chose to interpret my remarks as referring to NHOP. Could you pull a quote where I say "Niels Henning's playing is devoid of substance"? I'll settle for anything that is substantially a paraphrase of that sentence.

"how does a person get "substance" ? There's that check list again. How does a person gain "substance" in any other aspect of life? How do you become a deeper person? How do you manage to distill meaning from the vapor of nuance? How do you manage to communicate in the immediacy of the moment, yet say things that resonate with universality?

Maybe if you made an Excel spreadsheet....

 

[Tom Baldwin]

YOKO JOHONO- You are both smart and funny. I appreciate your thoughtful postesses. But I don't quite agree with this, or maybe I misunderstood:

So how do Chris's words carry substance? Because the language he used to express them operates according to rules created and agreed upon by all of us who use it and understand it.

The fact that he used proper grammer (amazing for a guy from Kintuckee) by itself doesn't give his words substance. It's the IDEAS behind those words that are the substance. The fact that he used words in a way that adheres to conventions allows us to understand the meaning of the ideas he conveys.

Maybe that's what you meant?

I think the notion of substance can be equated with meaning, which in a sense is almost LIKE taste. Something (music, art, prose) may have meaning to you but not someone else. That boils down to personal experience. So art that "reaches" more people does so because it has more UNIVERSAL meaning (what Ed said). Only the passage of time will sort this out, since that which has more universal meaning or substance will endure. That is why although Brittany Aguilara reaches a lot of people RIGHT NOW, history will show that she is but a ripple in the ocean.

In terms of substance with regard to NHOP. What is it that gives a performance meaning? Is he telling a story or just rambling with cliches? Is he conveying emotion or showing off his speed chops? Is there expressivenes and nuance, or is it sterile? (OK, that has more to do with style) Depends on who you ask.

I can enjoy a little NHOP now and again, but I do tire of it after short to moderate doses.

 

[Jeremy Allen]

YOKO JOHONO- The fact that he used proper grammer (amazing for a guy from Kintuckee) by itself doesn't give his words substance. It's the IDEAS behind those words that are the substance. The fact that he used words in a way that adheres to conventions allows us to understand the meaning of the ideas he conveys.

Maybe that's what you meant?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Not "how do Chris's individual words carry individual meanings" but "how do Chris's words as in the totality of them combined in a grammatically-coherent paragraph manage to convey a big idea made up of lots of little ones." Thanks for clarifying! (My father used to have a sign over his desk: "I know you think you understand what you thought you heard me say, but you fail to realize that what I said is not really what I meant." He was a semiotician and he didn't even know it...)

BRUCE: How did we make the jump from asking whether one person's artistic statement has substance to whether or not that person as an individual has substance? That's a whole 'nother question (as we say in Kentuckiana), and one I think not really applicable to the original bone of contention. Then again, we've gotten pretty far from that original bone, and who am I to nit-pick...

PS Dexter Gordon, "One Flight Up," 1964: NHOP, age 18, having been playing for only a few years, kicking some serious booty with a fat "normal" double bass sound, swingin' lines, and some great-but-not-overdone chops on his solos. He wouldn't be the first bass player in the jazz pantheon to sound amazing in the 1960s and later succumb (in some opinions) or evolve (in others) to a skinny, fast, electric sound and a different approach...

 

[Eric Jackson]

...Brittany Aguilara...ripple in the ocean...

Too funny...and true.

Re substance in pop music:
My parents' generation had Sinatra and Ella.
My generation had Lennon and McCartney.
My kids' generation has Brittany and 50 Cent.
How depressing.

Re substance in NHOP's playing:
Saw him live with Oscar Peterson in the fall of '03. Awesome, in the truest sense of a much-overused word. Not just for his speed, but also for his flawless technique, nice woody sound, ever-tasteful swinging lines, breathtakingly beautiful sustaining harmonics and multiple stops at slower tempos- the man's a master.

 

[Tom Baldwin]

Be-Tall

Good one!

Re substance in pop music:
My parents' generation had Sinatra and Ella.
My generation had Lennon and McCartney.
My kids' generation has Brittany and 50 Cent.
How depressing.

How true. Disheartening, although I'm not depressed. (yet)

Dexter Gordon, "One Flight Up,"

I'd be curious to hear that. Who else is on it?

 

[Jeremy Allen]

I'd be curious to hear that. Who else is on it?

Along with Dexter, it's Donald Byrd (t), Kenny Drew (p), and Art Taylor (d). So it's all Americans (and All-Americans at that) with the young Dane with the "double-barreled name" (as the liner notes say).

BTW, the people from the generation that had Sinatra and Ella in general thought very little of Lennon and McCartney; and the people from the generation that had Lennon and McCartney, while probably right in not thinking much of Britney and 50 Cent, may at the same time be overlooking the pop musicians of substance in the current generation: my jazz musician peers find much of "substance" in Bjork, Radiohead, Digable Planets, Beck, D'Angelo, and others. Good stuff is out there, even in the popular realm...

 

[Ed Fuqua]

That rhythm section could make Lawrence Welk swing.

It's always the "Emperor's New clothes" question. Am I not hearing anything there because I'm not hearing anything or because there's nothing there to hear...

 

[Tbeers]

The more I watch the DVD I can understand where some of you are coming from. Ray Brown doesn't really have the best intonation or technique, but there's some x-factor to his playing that makes me feel like I'm "home at last" whenever he plucks the string. But still... some of the precision and rhythmic sophistication that NHOP achieves makes my jaw drop. Listen to the way he uses triplets! My favorite NHOP solo from this recording is on the tune "You Look Good to Me." Highly recommended!

 

[audiotom]

Niels Pederson does have incredible technique
does it overshadow his artistic quality?

he's not always flashy

try listening to The Eternal Traveler, Joe Pass North Sea Fest 79, or his work with Oscar Peterson. He has a wide range of playing - sometimes flashy, many times reflective and sparse laying down a line of understated elegance that Charlie Haden would approve of.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

BOOST - It's interesting that you chose to interpret my remarks as referring to NHOP. Could you pull a quote where I say "Niels Henning's playing is devoid of substance"? I'll settle for anything that is substantially a paraphrase of that sentence.

[I must have missed this reply...? ]

Well, that was my impression from a number of your posts and Paul W's on the first page of this thread - if that's not what
was meant then OK - no problem.

"how does a person get "substance" ? There's that check list again. How does a person gain "substance" in any other aspect of life? How do you become a deeper person? How do you manage to distill meaning from the vapor of nuance? How do you manage to communicate in the immediacy of the moment, yet say things that resonate with universality?
....

Well, I was interested in this topic, as somebody who would like to play Jazz bass - so, my interest was in how experienced players like yourself and Paul amongst others, defined substance in Jazz bass playing - why one person has it and another doesn't, why certain playing has it ...etc. etc.

[I also don't believe that substance "as a person" necessarily translates to your chosen artistic field - reading a lot of artists' biographies - a lot of the greatest were not nice people(!!) had little going for them apart from their art - but that's another long debate....]

So - OK we have things like technique,timing,musical interest, tastefulness, sympathetic accompanying, melodic soloing etc. etc. Things that makes sense to me when listening to a bass player ...

What I don't see is where "substance" fits into this - I'm genuinely asking the question, as I don't want to spend years studying and listening - only to be told - well ...the most important thing was always ...."substance" !!

Or is it just a vague "catch-all" - shorthand for : what I like?

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

In terms of substance with regard to NHOP. What is it that gives a performance meaning? Is he telling a story or just rambling with cliches? Is he conveying emotion or showing off his speed chops? Is there expressivenes and nuance, or is it sterile? (OK, that has more to do with style) Depends on who you ask.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking of - so I can see how this applies to a soloist in Jazz, who takes you on a journey and shapes a solo.

I have often felt this about Sax players, who can play a solo , accompanied sympathetically, maybe over 10 - 15 minutes which is totally gripping and also "of the moment"...

You really feel as if they have said something and the whole band was involved.

But I must admit - I don't feel this way about Jazz DB players solo's - they are almost always : quiet,short and unaccompanied - they seem to be providing a moment of tranquillity, almost as contrast to something like a storming Tenor Sax moment..?

Also, I can tell from the debate so far that we aren't really talking about storming solos - in fact it's the opposite that seems to be appreciated - as Paul said "Less is more".

 

[andymseed1961]

Does it really matter ? - our friend may be 17 but he has found something in NHOP's playing that he enjoyed and admired so much that he felt that he had to let us all know about it - GOOD , I'm glad he found it that uplifting . Let him have his enjoyment , do we have to argue over whether NHOP is a great bassist or not ?
In my opinion he is - but that is just MY opinion , I'm not going to try and force it on others . I also like Ray Brown , Milt Hinton , Marcus Van Story , Dorsey Burnette , Big Crawford , Ransom Knowling , Fred Maddox , Red Stewart , Willie Dixon and many others (the eagle eyed among you may have noticed that a lot of those aren't jazz players ) who all do one thing in common --- play with FEELING which I still say NHOP does. If you really want to see him do that I have a live video recording of him playing bass behind Oscar Peterson that was recorded over 20 years ago for the "South Bank Show" here in the U.K
Just let our friend enjoy his music - we shouldn't try to influence his tastes , they will develop on their own.
Andy.

 

[joe_sorren]

and on the beach the sand is laughing,
at the smallness of it.

 

[pierre]

What an amazing debate !!
We must grow to hate the playing of Niels. Personnaly I apreciate his way of playing .....what about the cd "double bass" NHOP with Sam Jones .. their difference of sound and approach make the beauty of this one.....Peace.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just watched a video of NHOP with the Kenny Drew Trio, and I must say that whether you like Niels' playing or not, there's a lot to be learned from watching the man do what he did. There's a great linear concept happening in his lines, and the facility is undeniable. I'd like to cop a little of both, then use it when it seemed to fit, and not use it when it didn't. YMMV.

 

[dhadleyray]

But wouldn't it be better to have pristine technique and play meaningful lines?

I find this point relevant to an experience I had a year ago...

I was studying with a teacher to learn DB, and he was a very good jazz player. After a few lessons he said that my posture was ok. I knew I was doing pretty well, but I didn't believe I was doing "that" well. I felt in my gut that something wasn't right and I went to the Royal College of Music and found my current teacher. We spent a year on stance and bow hold.

I think for technique, you should study classical. NHOP had phenomenal technique and I think that showed whether he was playing slow or fast.

 

[Pcocobass]

The more I watch the DVD I can understand where some of you are coming from. Ray Brown doesn't really have the best intonation or technique,

I didn't want to get in on this, but...why not?

Tbeers, I would also recommend the DVD you began this thread referring to. Ray Brown and NHOP are both insane and play some killin' solos, not to mention Oscar Peterson.

But...to me, saying anything negative about Ray Brown's playing, period, is sacrilege. In my humble opinion, his technique is flawless, as well as his intonation. I can't think of any recording of Ray's that I own where this isn't always the case. If anyone can point one out, maybe you can prove me wrong.

Ray Brown is one of the fathers of jazz bass - one of the masters and pioneers of the instrument in jazz. And, in my opinion, Ray is certainly not lacking or deficient in any way, shape, or form. There is so much more to playing than technique, and so many aspects and dimensions that make up a great player, which I'm sure you already know.

The longer I play, the more I realize that even though it would be great to have amazing technique, it should not be your main priority as a bass player. As a yound player, the best thing for you to do is transcribe bass lines and work on your intonation, sound, time feel and rhythmic pulse (in addition to transcribing solos - I know this is important, too). I can tell you that other musicians in the band will react much more to a great swingin' feel and pulse (i.e. a solid foundation) than they will to you playing a good solo. Remember that the piano, horn players, and drummer all feed off of your pulse and swing. If you don't have this together, no one in the band will care if you play faster than NHOP...

Ray Brown himself said "The most important thing you can do with this instrument is not play fast, not play solos, but get a good sound."

You seem like you have a good head on your shoulders, so I hope this gives you some good direction.