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Highschool female westler wins by forfeit

#81
baalroo said:
However, I still don't respect the actual underlying belief that you should treat a woman differently than a man even when they specifically request that you treat them as an equal.
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You have to be careful about how you define "equal". Equal dignity, equal rights, equal opportunities. Fine.

But men and women are physically different. It sounds ridiculous to have to spell it out, yet there are plenty of people who try very hard to deny this undeniable fact. Putting teen girls on wrestling teams with teen boys is just plain stupid. You are asking for piles of problems. Several have already been mentioned.

--It's a no-win situation for any boy who wrestles a girl. If you win you just beat up a girl. If you lose you just lost to a girl.

--When two guys wrestle or when two girls wrestle, it's just a sport. When a guy and a girl wrestle there is no such thing as "I'm not thinking about explicitly sexual acts."

--It's not fair to the girls. Even the most talented girls are at a severe disadvantage to similar sized boys that they might as not even be there. A few girls might win against a handful of the least skilled boys but that's about the extent of their hopes. How much fun is it for them knowing ahead of time that they might as well not bother. It's as if the high school football team were scheduled to play in the NFL all season.


There are many sports where girls are as competitive as guys, head to head, and there are plenty of team sports where it's appropriate for girls to compete on the same field with guys.

Wrestling isn't among them.


Why not let the girls have their own wrestling team? Has anyone actually tried this? I think it would be very popular. You'd probably get as many girls to go out for this as volleyball or cross country. Might be as popular as track or basketball. I also bet it would be at least as popular for the fans.
 
#82
hbarcat said:
You have to be careful about how you define "equal". Equal dignity, equal rights, equal opportunities. Fine.
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and this is a case of equal opportunities

But men and women are physically different. It sounds ridiculous to have to spell it out, yet there are plenty of people who try very hard to deny this undeniable fact. Putting teen girls on wrestling teams with teen boys is just plain stupid. You are asking for piles of problems. Several have already been mentioned.
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and in highschool many of the boys are also very physically different. Some have gone through puberty, some have not. Some are muscular, some are not. What's the saying about not making assumptions about competitors and underdogs winning unexpectedly? something like... "that's why we play the game"

--It's a no-win situation for any boy who wrestles a girl. If you win you just beat up a girl. If you lose you just lost to a girl.
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And I don't see what that has to do with anything, unless of course, you are sexist and losing to a girl is more demeaning in your mind than losing to a boy.

--When two guys wrestle or when two girls wrestle, it's just a sport. When a guy and a girl wrestle there is no such thing as "I'm not thinking about explicitly sexual acts."
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and sometimes when two boys wrestle there's no such thing as "I'm not thinking about explicitly sexual acts" either... but I guess maybe they should ban gay kids from the sport too?

--It's not fair to the girls. Even the most talented girls are at a severe disadvantage to similar sized boys that they might as not even be there. A few girls might win against a handful of the least skilled boys but that's about the extent of their hopes. How much fun is it for them knowing ahead of time that they might as well not bother. It's as if the high school football team were scheduled to play in the NFL all season.
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You play the matches to find out which are those "few girls" who will beat the "handful of the least skilled boys," kinda like the small wimpy looking boy with a ton of heart or the scrappy underdog team from the backwater town, y'know the one all the sports fans love to watch movies about. It's also why the boy who they expect to win in his weight class still has to wrestle the less talented/physically dominant kids. We don't declare the guy with the best shot at winning the defacto winner.

There are many sports where girls are as competitive as guys, head to head, and there are plenty of team sports where it's appropriate for girls to compete on the same field with guys.

Wrestling isn't among them.
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and this girl apparently disagree and is attempting to change that perception.

Why not let the girls have their own wrestling team? Has anyone actually tried this? I think it would be very popular. You'd probably get as many girls to go out for this as volleyball or cross country. Might be as popular as track or basketball. I also bet it would be at least as popular for the fans.
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not a terrible idea I guess
 
#83
i guess i made the assumption, but i thought the whole reason the girls are participating in the program against boys is because there isn't enough demand for a girls' wrestling program?

kind of like girls playing football--not always because they want to compete against boys, but often they just want to compete in the sport and that's the only way...seems only fair

as for the big argument going on, consider:

11.11 secs fastest girls high school 100m world record...10.01 secs fastest boys

edit: look at the 400m times for perhaps more context--50.69 girls, 44.69 boys

as much as i love the underdog, that's a serious gap in ability
 
#85
()smoke() said:
11.11 secs fastest girls high school 100m world record...10.01 secs fastest boys

edit: look at the 400m times for perhaps more context--50.69 girls, 44.69 boys
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Maybe so, but just because the fastest person in the world happens to be a male doesn't mean all that much. If you take all males and all females in the world, and put them against each other in any sport, there will never be a situation where all the males will win, or all the females. There will always be some guy who will be stronger than some girl, but there just as well will be some girl who will always beat some guy.

As some people already suggested, no two people within either gender are ever physically equal. That's why people lose to others. I witnessed nearly this same exact discussion in class last semester. Wrestling came up during a discussion on gender equality. One kid refused to accept that females could beat males, as he didn't seem to get the point of the discussion. Most of the class understood though. One student admitted that when he was wrestling it wasn't always about strength, but about skill. An unskilled male would easily have lost to a skilled female of the same weight class.

If people were more open and would stop looking for general inequalities between genders, maybe we wouldn't have this issue. You're creating these differences by treating people differently. To think that one group of people is inferior in some way only perpetuates the inequalities. We're all human, and no single group of us is better than another.

And just think one more time. Would every male always beat every female? If it was a stocky Inuit male in a race against a longer legged, native Ethiopian female, would anyone expect the male to win in this case? We're more than just averages on a page. We're all unique, and for each one of us there will be someone out there who we could beat at something physical. To think otherwise is a lie.


I have nothing against the kid for forfeiting, though he could have had a better reason. I don't believe he said anything about the female wrestler being inferior though, unlike what some people seem to be suggesting here. If he doesn't want to wrestle a certain person, oh well, but don't use it to suggest one group of people is worse than another.
 
#86
Bett said:
Maybe so, but just because the fastest person in the world happens to be a male doesn't mean all that much. If you take all males and all females in the world, and put them against each other in any sport, there will never be a situation where all the males will win, or all the females. There will always be some guy who will be stronger than some girl, but there just as well will be some girl who will always beat some guy.

As some people already suggested, no two people within either gender are ever physically equal. That's why people lose to others. I witnessed nearly this same exact discussion in class last semester. Wrestling came up during a discussion on gender equality. One kid refused to accept that females could beat males, as he didn't seem to get the point of the discussion. Most of the class understood though. One student admitted that when he was wrestling it wasn't always about strength, but about skill. An unskilled male would easily have lost to a skilled female of the same weight class.

If people were more open and would stop looking for general inequalities between genders, maybe we wouldn't have this issue. You're creating these differences by treating people differently. To think that one group of people is inferior in some way only perpetuates the inequalities. We're all human, and no single group of us is better than another.

And just think one more time. Would every male always beat every female? If it was a stocky Inuit male in a race against a longer legged, native Ethiopian female, would anyone expect the male to win in this case? We're more than just averages on a page. We're all unique, and for each one of us there will be someone out there who we could beat at something physical. To think otherwise is a lie.


I have nothing against the kid for forfeiting, though he could have had a better reason. I don't believe he said anything about the female wrestler being inferior though, unlike what some people seem to be suggesting here. If he doesn't want to wrestle a certain person, oh well, but don't use it to suggest one group of people is worse than another.
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...sure, some females will beat some males--i wouldn't deny that :)

i mentioned that i see it as fair for females to compete with males if they wish...i simply observe that there are measurable differences between the most elite of both genders in speed, that is just a reality, and when F=MA, that can make a difference--especially if M is the same as in wrestling (again, just to clarify--not that other attributes and skills can't allow one to win)
 
#89
baalroo said:
and this is a case of equal opportunities

and in highschool many of the boys are also very physically different. Some have gone through puberty, some have not. Some are muscular, some are not. What's the saying about not making assumptions about competitors and underdogs winning unexpectedly? something like... "that's why we play the game"

And I don't see what that has to do with anything, unless of course, you are sexist and losing to a girl is more demeaning in your mind than losing to a boy.

and sometimes when two boys wrestle there's no such thing as "I'm not thinking about explicitly sexual acts" either... but I guess maybe they should ban gay kids from the sport too?

You play the matches to find out which are those "few girls" who will beat the "handful of the least skilled boys," kinda like the small wimpy looking boy with a ton of heart or the scrappy underdog team from the backwater town, y'know the one all the sports fans love to watch movies about. It's also why the boy who they expect to win in his weight class still has to wrestle the less talented/physically dominant kids. We don't declare the guy with the best shot at winning the defacto winner.

and this girl apparently disagree and is attempting to change that perception.

not a terrible idea I guess
Click to expand...


In case you didn't notice, wrestling is a combat sport. It requires the use of brute force and requires contact, sometimes in intimate/inappropriate areas. It can require men to strike a woman, to injure her, and to violate many of societies rules concerning physical contact between the genders. It has nothing to do with losing to a girl or it being more demeaning to lose to a girl. I hated losing, girl or not. That doesn't even take into account the sexual implications that can take place. I've rolled with a girl or 2, and they definitely have an unfair advantage. I'm not sure where I can put my hands, and hesitations like that can cause a loss. It gives them an unfair competitive advantage.

It isn't like they aren't allowed opportunities to play this sport or others. In Tennessee, many high schools have female only teams and most of the ones that do not support allowing them into the sport. Some even go as far as to schedule matches between the boy's and girl's teams on the same night to cut down expenses or ask for matches for their girls to get to wrestle if they don't have a full team. To me, that doesn't count as "denying them their right to equality." It almost sounds like "going out of their way to not step on people's toes."

PC or not, I don't feel like wrestling is a sport where males and females should be mixed.

Personally I completely support the boy and his forfeit. He should have the right to refuse to violate his belief system.
 
#90
jp58 said:
In case you didn't notice, wrestling is a combat sport. It requires the use of brute force and requires contact, sometimes in intimate/inappropriate areas. It can require men to strike a woman, to injure her, and to violate many of societies rules concerning physical contact between the genders. It has nothing to do with losing to a girl or it being more demeaning to lose to a girl. I hated losing, girl or not. That doesn't even take into account the sexual implications that can take place. I've rolled with a girl or 2, and they definitely have an unfair advantage. I'm not sure where I can put my hands, and hesitations like that can cause a loss. It gives them an unfair competitive advantage.
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Pretty much everything that takes place in a wrestling match violates "societies rules" about all sorts of things, including the rules concerning physical contact between PEOPLE, female OR male... I'm not sure I understand your distinction, are you saying most male wrestlers are comfortable with maneuvers that would be considered sexual if done to a female? If so, why aren't they questionable to do to the other males?

Also, the person I was responding to was the one saying that "you lost to a girl" is inherently more demeaning than "you lost to a boy."

It isn't like they aren't allowed opportunities to play this sport or others. In Tennessee, many high schools have female only teams and most of the ones that do not support allowing them into the sport. Some even go as far as to schedule matches between the boy's and girl's teams on the same night to cut down expenses or ask for matches for their girls to get to wrestle if they don't have a full team. To me, that doesn't count as "denying them their right to equality." It almost sounds like "going out of their way to not step on people's toes."
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yeah, and I think that's pretty cool, I was arguing more generally towards the folks in this thread who seem to be specifically against that sort of thing.

PC or not, I don't feel like wrestling is a sport where males and females should be mixed.
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PC my $*#, YOUR position is the politically correct one... my position is the one that shakes up the hornets nest, clearly. Try arguing that "boys and girls should all play sports together co-ed" in a crowded applebees and I'll take the opposing viewpoint and we'll see who gets more people who agree. PC isn't just a word you get to use when someone disagrees with your opinion.

Personally I completely support the boy and his forfeit. He should have the right to refuse to violate his belief system.
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Absolutely agree, as long as the rules are followed and he isn't getting any sort of special privilege based on his beliefs either. I don't mind if he forfeits, but it doesn't make him some sort of victim like some of the people here are trying to argue.
 
#91
baalroo said:
Pretty much everything that takes place in a wrestling match violates "societies rules" about all sorts of things, including the rules concerning physical contact between PEOPLE, female OR male... I'm not sure I understand your distinction, are you saying most male wrestlers are comfortable with maneuvers that would be considered sexual if done to a female? If so, why aren't they questionable to do to the other males?
Click to expand...

Sexual contact doesn't typically happen. To control someone in a match it can be required of you to grab a girl in the "no-no" squares. If I have to bring her wrist to her chest, or try to grab her shoulder from behind, it is very easy for my hand to slip onto her breasts. If I am trying to bury her wrists in the mat (or between her legs), my hand is all but in her crotch. With any error on my part, I am touching her in areas deemed inappropriate. Men lack the parts women have and rules (placed by society) concerning their upper bodies. Also touching of genitalia (and having a "red rocket") is against the rules, and is frowned on.

As far as the combat side of things is concerned, all contact sports violate the "don't hit others" or "do unto others" rule. Wrestling also has an entire rule set dedicated to prevent injury, prohibit strikes, and to maintain control. I'm not allowed to WWE style slam an opponent on the mat, I would get ejected if I tried a stunt like that.

I would consider "seperate but equal" to be not PC as far as a lot of other issues are concerned. So I just figured my views of "SBE" to be non-PC here too.
 
#95
baalroo said:
Also, the person I was responding to was the one saying that "you lost to a girl" is inherently more demeaning than "you lost to a boy."
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I said it because it's universally true among adolescent males. Fair or not, right or not, it's how teen boys think and if a boy loses to a girl in wrestling there is a fair likelihood that he's going to get bullied by other boys because of it. I guess I'm a complete jerk for simply pointing it out, but someone needs to be the one to say the obvious.
 

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