Double Bass Hole in the Heart (5 String) Double Bass idea.

[Lance Bunyon]

Yes I am but I can try my best to make it work.

Here's my question.
Why must you assume all 5 string upright basses are inherently broken?
I mean, have you ever played a 5 string upright? Do you play 4 string upright?
Do you play bass at all?
Are you a luthier? Have you built basses?

Every time you answer one question, 10 more pop up.

 

[JBarz]

I plan to buy a 5 string Upright Bass in the future so I can make this idea work.

Listen, I love to experiment, DIY, and modify (and sometimes ruin) stuff. Love it - for real - great way to learn stuff….

BUT, I think you’ll be better served modifying a broken 1/2 size ply bass or just making your own fractional instrument to try this out. Again, I feel it my obligation to chime in and say - I play the 7/8 Shen 5–string and holy crap that low string (mine’s a C) BOOMS and the instrument is perfectly in balance with itself. Like, there’s no improving perfection, my man. But here you are, having never played a five-string bass (yes?), already dead-set on purchasing one ($8k?), simply to potentially ruin to maybe (but probably not) prove a hypothesis you posited on the internet trying to fix a “problem” that doesn’t actually exist.

BUT, a smaller body travel instrument that sounded as big, shoot - get out of town. Make it happen, Oscar. Refine your design and in 20 years I might buy one from you if it works well!

Oscar might not aspire to be a great upright player - he might be more of a tinkerer/craftsman. That’s cool - there’s room for everyone, but even then, Oscar, there’s rich traditions that you should probably study and learn from before your start radical departures in tinkering.

If you haven’t already, check out the Traeger books, the A. Schnitzer book, and the “so you think you want to build a double bass” book.

 

[Mark_T]

There are plenty of reasons why I'm skeptical of this idea but the big one I can't get over is the fallacy about how a bass will be improved by sacrificing the upper partials to add low end. Yes, we play low notes, but if you think the sound is just those bottom frequencies, you're mistaken. A really great sounding bass has harmonic content many octaves above the fundamental and it feels like this modification, as described, will throw those out the window.

My hypothesis is that in the best case scenario, you might get an improvement on a bass-shaped object to make it resemble something slightly better, but in every other circumstance you'll be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm here to help:

 

[Don Hergert]

Ok, after being pretty cynical, I do apologize as some people are trying to take this seriously. Here's my serious effort on this concept... But feel free to skip this post if you're tired of thinking about it (highly recommended ).

The problem isn't "does it work or doesn't it work?"...

The problem is that no double bass is exactly the same as any other double bass. Wood is like a fingerprint, no two pieces are exactly the same and each has its own tone characteristics. And then, as similar as they may be, these huge instruments are basically hand made -- even with CNC assistance the builds and setups are never exactly the same, there will be at least subtle construction differences all over the place. Those are the reasons why we recommend people try as many different double basses as possible before they decide on which one will be theirs. Even with 5-string DBs.

Tests may at best produce subtle positive results on one double bass and subtle negative results on another. That's just the nature of the beast. Testing on one double bass, or even a small handful of them, will not prove anything. The only way this could be effectively tested is by a large number of DBs over a long period of time, like the thousands of DBs which have essentially been tested in musicians hands over the centuries while a successful model of DBs evolved. Short of doing that, nothing can be proven well enough for many if not most serious DB players to accept it.

Graphical charts may identify highs and lows, but the important result is going to be how the instruments sound to the people playing, to the ensembles that they play with, and to the audiences involved in a variety of venues over a long period of time, as players learn to pull tone from the instrument.

And unfortunately, the test is not reversible unless someone wants to put a new top on the instrument after being tested, which then basically makes it a different instrument; plus this would be very expensive.

Lastly, human hearing is remarkably subjective. That's probably the hardest problem to solve. As an accepted general project management rule, in the real world it's nearly impossible for an individual who is seriously investing time, money and energy into defining and executing a project, to reliably and objectively judge its success or failure. Sound related projects are no different.

In summary, there are too many variables. I'd say go ahead and test it on your own DB if you wish, but no matter what your results are, you'll find it difficult to convince anyone to do the same to their personal DBs.

 

[Don Kasper]

I'm here to help:

 

[TroyK]

Ok, after being pretty cynical, I do apologize as some people are trying to take this seriously. Here's my serious effort on this concept...

Right, of course. The other issue that is causing the backlash is that those of us who actually play doublebass understand that the limitations that we're faced with are 90% us and 10% bass. There are a lot of reasonable things to do to narrow that 10% down, but what people are going to hear is the 90%, which (for most of us) is a lifetime of work.

Since you haven't started that work yet. It seems foolish to take a design used to make a child's student violin sound like a child's student viola and apply it to an adult's performance quality doublebass instead of renting a bass and working with a teacher to start your journey properly. I know that you have a homemade doublebass made out of a barrel. A properly setup student Shen and some lessons would be a 1000x upgrade.

I love my bass. It's not the best bass in the world by a long shot. It's not even the best bass I could afford, but I don't need the best bass, I need to be a better player. You're skipping that step.

And, I know that you don't want to hear this, but you don't need that 5th string. I know you love your 5 string BG, but you'll have your hands full with 4. After about 20 years of bass guitar and THEN 20 years of DB, I am still the biggest limitation in my signal chain.

Great players like our departed friend Paul Warburton made a career playing jazz on a 5-string doublebass and he never once complained that it was inadequate and holding him back.

Your motivations are confusing.
Your arrogance to inform people who have dedicated their lives to this that you know better is offensive.

 

[JBarz]

The other issue that is causing the backlash is that those of us who actually play doublebass understand that the limitations that we're faced with are 90% us and 10% bass. There are a lot of reasonable things to do to narrow that 10% down, but what people are going to hear is the 90%, which (for most of us) is a lifetime of work.

Troy’s post, although well intentioned, is unfortunately very wrong.

Truth is, it’s 90% us, 7% the bass… and 3% the f’n strings.

( I jest, I jest )

 

[damonsmith]

My understanding of the primary issue with five strings is getting a reasonable string tension. I could be mistaken. This would not address that at all.
Also, I don't think making a great sounding five string is an issue any more.
Barry Guy pulls a great sound out of his Dawson travel bass:

This album was made on his regular Dawson five string:

I believe Jean Auray makes the basses Garcia-Fons plays.

So, we are back to a solution looking for a problem again.

 

[damonsmith]

Troy’s post, although well intentioned, is unfortunately very wrong.

Truth is, it’s 90% us, 7% the bass… and 3% the f’n strings.

( I jest, I jest )

"You're joking, but perhaps you're right" - Jeffery Lebowski. I have always felt the bass is a much bigger part of it. In every story of great player picking a bass and making it sound like them on some gig, there is a much nicer instrument that they actually found their voice on. Strings, and by that I mean Spiros: 50%.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

Friendly reminder to all that the "ignore" feature is free. I used it on a couple of trolls including OP a while back... 10/10 would recommend!

Truth is, it’s 90% us, 7% the bass… and 3% the f’n strings

So you're telling me there's a (3%) chance‽

 

[TroyK]

No problem here:

 

[Don Kasper]

Actually, as everyone knows, Swiss Cheese produces more low-end than Cheddar, (which can be a bit mid-rangy.)
(Drops Mic...)
This thread needs more Fart-Humor, and I'm here to supply it!
You're Welcome!

 

[Mark_T]

If this thread is turning into a Paul Warburton nostalgia thread, I'll take it.

 

[TroyK]

I can't help but think about him in this thread.

Also, I can't help but think: Paul was a great loss, but I'm so happy that I haven't had to moderate his responses to this ... proclamation.

 

[PBandJazzBass]

I’m just glad people aren’t arguing over round vs flat back.

 

[GretschWretch]

I'm here to help:


View attachment 5415130

Sears has gone under. This must be a counterfeit.

 

[GretschWretch]

Actually, as everyone knows, Swiss Cheese produces more low-end than Cheddar, (which can be a bit mid-rangy.)
(Drops Mic...)
This thread needs more Fart-Humor, and I'm here to supply it!
You're Welcome!

And if we all followed your lead, then soon this thread would be trucking along at a dynamic level of fartissimo. And we might pass in the wind. All we'd be was passin' in the wind.

 

[GretschWretch]

I know that you have a homemade doublebass made out of a barrel.

Now hold on a minute, Troy! I actually DO have a doublebass made out of a wine barrel. Or at least a mandobass made out of a half barrel (reputably an olive barrel circa 1893). Darn thing weighed over fifty pounds, and just trying to maneuver it into playing position was exactly like trying to drive a Cadillac with the power steering gone out.

 

[turf3]

Now hold on a minute, Troy! I actually DO have a doublebass made out of a wine barrel. Or at least a mandobass made out of a half barrel (reputably an olive barrel circa 1893). Darn thing weighed over fifty pounds, and just trying to maneuver it into playing position was exactly like trying to drive a Cadillac with the power steering gone out.

I know a guy who built his own "double bass" based on the banjo principle; based on a bass drum. He told me it weighed in at 75 lbs.

While I still think OP's idea has POTENTIAL merit (unlike the pile-on crowd here, who want all new ideas excoriated and then exterminated) I do admit there are some things that seem like a good idea at the time, but aren't.