How Bad is Clipping...

[telecopy]

.
... for your amp or speaker?

I'm not positive, but pretty sure that when I crank the input's gain, and get that type of clicking sound, that it's clipping.
It does it to various degrees with different basses - some give off a loud thumping click, and some hardly at all.

I really like that sound - it's so punchy. But I'm not sure if going after it will damage my amp or speaker.

Is there some kind of an fx unit or something, that would give off that type of sound without damaging anything?

http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/mythbusters1.htm

 

[Fuzzbass]

Regretfully, I stand corrected. Thank you for the information.

You, sir, are a gentleman. The square wave misconception ("underpowering can be bad") is still far too common; I once believed it myself. I think the basis is that square waves CAN be harmful to tweeters. However I'd wait for the audio experts to confirm rather than taking my word.

Edit -- it's covered in the link that telecopy provided just above, Myth 4.x:
http://barefacedbass.com/technical-information/mythbusters1.htm

 

[CL400Peavey]

You, sir, are a gentleman. The square wave misconception ("underpowering can be bad") is still far too common; I once believed it myself. I think the basis is that square waves CAN be harmful to tweeters. However I'd wait for the audio experts to confirm rather than taking my word.

The issue with square waves/distortion and tweeters, is that those wave forms have more energy in the higher spectrum due to harmonics, than a clean signal. It is still over powering the cross over/tweeter.

 

[Fuzzbass]

The issue with square waves/distortion and tweeters, is that those wave forms have more energy in the higher spectrum due to harmonics, than a clean signal. It is still over powering the cross over/tweeter.

Cool, thank you.

 

[B-string]

Clipping is not dangerous to bass drivers provided adequate precautions are taken. JBL addressed this very nicely in this whitepaper: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (last page, referencing MI applications with a distorted (meaning clipped) signal)

A 50% derating from published driver thermal power ratings is the most commonly used derating factor.

Repeating agedhorse's post for those that missed the linked info.

 

[sl0pch0p]

There are two ways you can over power a speaker. One is exceeding its thermal power handling. Burning the voice coils. This can be done by any wave form, as long as there is enough energy to exceed the capacity of the voice coil's heat shedding system.

The second way to over power the speaker is exceeding the mechanical limits of the speaker. This can any mechanical failing of a component in the speaker, cone, surround/suspension. This is actually more common, as thermal limits tend to be much larger than mechanical limits.

I am beginning to experiment with gain/overdrive on my setup and I am getting some sick tones from my bass on my amp when I crank the gain up just to the point where the clipping indicator is teetering on staying solid (clipping all the time) instead of being completely off (not clipping at all) or occasionally flickering (sometimes clipping).

But, I have been keeping it back for fear of damaging my speakers. I've been using distortion pedals while keeping a close eye on the clipping indicator and rolling the gain off until it is either off or just flickering. Honestly though, I think the sound i get when I am clipping my amp intentionally is way cooler. Like some real natural growl, almost like an old tube amp (I have a Mixed SS/Tube MarkBass Little Mark Tube 800 that I usually keep blended around the 90% tube, 10% SS mark)

My amp puts out 500w at 8 ohms. My 4x10 cab handles 800w at 8 ohms. I suppose I have two questions:

- How do I know if I am damaging my speakers on my cab, clipping my amp intentionally or not?

- Isn't that sought after, natural growl and distortion that comes from a classic old tube amp just the amp clipping / the tubes being overdriven (i.e. a little too much gain being pushed through)? That doesnt seem to harm cabs that can handle the power right?

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[Mr. Foxen]

That growl from valve amps is clipping. Speakers being damaged make a speakers being damaged sound, usually of rhte fart variety, they tend to fart before damage, in the line between exceeding xmax but below exceeding xlim. Being in that space too much will wear them out quickly, but it is the warning area, kinda like a rumble strip. All about the ears. The main problem with distortion from elsewhere is it makes that harder to notice.

 

[Lexter Santiago]

Can the head “amp” get damage because of the clipping ? Or only the speakers ?

 

[agedhorse]

Can the head “amp” get damage because of the clipping ? Or only the speakers ?

Clipping the input or the output of the amp?

A well designed amp should be 100% protected from any effects of clipping or overdriving the input, and within reason the output should be well protected too.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Clipping is not an issue in general but there are limitations of what you can feed into an amp. Stick to what is specified for the amp. Some active basses can put out a large signal. That’s why some amps have pads at the input, to reduce the signal level.

I know a guy that was feeding the output of a tube amp into the input of another. The distortion sounded glorious for a while but he kept blowing his amps. Not surprising.

 

[FullumMusic]

If Square Waves harmed speakers, my 2+ decades making electronic music would be a speaker graveyard. I had the same studio monitors for the better part of those 2 decades. Square waves didn't damage them, and they haven't damaged my new ones neither. Every electronic music dance club in the past 40 years would have blown out PA systems. Square wave bass lines are a mainstay.

Also, analog clipping doesn't square waves. The distortion happens in more "natural" shapes, where even the sharp turns in direction don't have hard-edges.

Digital clipping, on the other hand, will give you hard-squares or hard-edges in your wave shapes. But even then, doesn't damage speakers. Use it all the time in my music, both square waves specifically and digital clipping.

 

[agedhorse]

If Square Waves harmed speakers, my 2+ decades making electronic music would be a speaker graveyard. I had the same studio monitors for the better part of those 2 decades. Square waves didn't damage them, and they haven't damaged my new ones neither. Every electronic music dance club in the past 40 years would have blown out PA systems. Square wave bass lines are a mainstay.
View attachment 5080402

Also, analog clipping doesn't square waves. The distortion happens in more "natural" shapes, where even the sharp turns in direction don't have hard-edges.

Digital clipping, on the other hand, will give you hard-squares or hard-edges in your wave shapes. But even then, doesn't damage speakers. Use it all the time in my music, both square waves specifically and digital clipping.

When the speakers are reasonably powered and there’s enough rig for the gig.

 

[lug]

Square waves do not hurt speakers. If distortion damaged speakers then every gui**** on the planet would have turned their rig in to a pile of ash years ago.

Burning voice coils is still a form of over powering. Distortion increases the average power pushed through the speakers. Some speakers can handle that increase, some can not.

If you hooked a 6 watt guitar amp up to an 810, and ran it full out, would you be burning up voice coils?

I'm convinced that distortion does damage guitartist's brains.

 

[Redbrangus]

 

[Lexter Santiago]

Clipping the input or the output of the amp?

A well designed amp should be 100% protected from any effects of clipping or overdriving the input, and within reason the output should be well protected too.

I have a Mark Bass little Markus 800

 

[J-Mags]

I have a Mark Bass little Markus 800

You're probably ok. Without actually hearing you play, I can't tell your clicking is an amp thing, or a playing thing. If your pickups are high, it could be the string literally bumping against the pickup or the pickup housing. Also compressors, especially cheap compressors, can click as they grab hold of the note. It's annoying. Then you could be getting speaker clicks and pops as well, which can be dangerous for the speaker. And you could be hearing random electronic stuff like minor shorts in an input jack (usually on the instrument end).

Here are some ways you can protect your speakers, aside from simply turning down, which works best. If you're playing an 800w amp, it may be that the max power of your amp exceeds the max power that your cabinet can take. Turning down will work for that.

1) Dial out some of the low end. If you're really cranking your lows, that could make your speakers work harder. If you need those lows, disregard this, but many people use more low end than they probably need.

2) High pass filters. Broughton and others make them, and they're inexpensive. You can dial out subharmonic frequencies, which will make your amp more responsive and protect your speakers. Some amps have built-in HPFs, and adding one won't make much of a difference, but I own a different Markbass, and my experience is that an HPF will make it louder and punchier and more able to tolerate the volume that you're putting into it. You can start by setting one at about 35 hz, which should be near-inaudible with a 4-string bass, but you may be able to set it to a higher frequency which would further tighten up your sound at the expense of some low lows. While 40hz is the fundamental of a low E, you're generally hearing more 80 hz with a normal bass guitar sound.

3) Limiters. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I sometimes set a limiter to shave off some of the peaks.

 

[ThisBass]

3) Limiters. It wouldn't be my first choice, but I sometimes set a limiter to shave off some of the peaks.

Even with limiter engaged, some transient content of peaks will not be affected by the limiter.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Here's a recently published look at the topic:
Are Underpowered Amplifiers More Dangerous To Loudspeakers? A Fresh Look At Conventional Wisdom… - ProSoundWeb