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"How bad is it?" Silvertone Hornet resurrection

#201
OK, series vs parallel is determined by how you hook it up. So the pickup itself is not series or parallel. Since you're finding the new one to be weak when soloed, I would check the following things with an ohm-meter:

For the pickup to be usuable in series, both the white and the red should have infinite resistance to the shield (or if you're touching both, around a few meg-ohms) measuring across the red and white should read 3.7k to 4.9k.
 
#202
Jon Clegg said:
OK, series vs parallel is determined by how you hook it up. So the pickup itself is not series or parallel. Since you're finding the new one to be weak when soloed, I would check the following things with an ohm-meter:

For the pickup to be usuable in series, both the white and the red should have infinite resistance to the shield (or if you're touching both, around a few meg-ohms) measuring across the red and white should read 3.7k to 4.9k.
Click to expand...

I'll do that once I find my voltmeter. I keep finding it and then forget where I put it. Next time... :rolleyes:
 
#203
rickwrench said:
I've got a 1443 wiring diagram posted:
http://www.rickwrench.com/images-sounds/guitars/silvertone-1443/Silvertone_1443_wiring.pdf

This is the correct and stock (except for the grounds) series wiring, as far as I've seen, for a 1443 with a standard + RWRP pair. Pots viewed from the back.
I have the main ground represented as a wire, though on the 1443's it was actually a strip of foil about a 3/4" wide. The diagram also shows an extra ground wire running to the bridge. When I've rewired them back to "stock-ish", I drill a small hole through the lower bridge screw hole into the routed area and feed a bare wire through to ground the bridge via the bottom screw.
It also sounds like your 3 way switch is wonky. It is an "on-off-on" switch, btw. Not the typical guitar "on-on-on" 3 way. Danelectro used the cheapest parts available and the on-off-on 3 way was apparently on sale.
With a RWRP pick-up, when wired correctly, the middle position should be hum cancelling and noticeably fuller than either single pick-up position.
Nep-tone will wind a correct RWRP pick-up. But, you need to find out the polarity of your stock pick-up first to see if you already have one.
Click to expand...

I somehow missed seeing your post - thank you very much Rick! I love a clear, easy to follow wiring diagram! I had no idea the switch was on-off-on. So by "off" you mean both pu's are on? (in the middle position) ...and neck position being bridge off, and bridge position being neck off? As in, both pu's are on until you switch off one or the other. Maybe that's not right - I'm confused by this backwards way of thinking.

When you say (except for the grounds) - what specific grounds are you referring to and where should they be?

I've done that (drill channel to threaded bridge post) but on this one I just ran a copper strip from the bridge with a wire soldered to it to the jack ground. Similar to original but more like on an early Fender.
 
#204
JIO said:
I somehow missed seeing your post - thank you very much Rick! I love a clear, easy to follow wiring diagram! I had no idea the switch was on-off-on. So by "off" you mean both pu's are on? (in the middle position) ...and neck position being bridge off, and bridge position being neck off? As in, both pu's are on until you switch off one or the other. Maybe that's not right - I'm confused by this backwards way of thinking.
Click to expand...

I'll grossly simplify things to explain how the switching works: In the series scheme the + of the bridge pickup circuit (including the pickup, vol, tone) is wired directly to the output and the - of the bridge pickup circuit is wired directly to the center lug of the switch and the + of the neck pickup circuit with the - of the neck pickup connecting to ground. The switch is an ON-OFF-ON type, so in the center position the center lug is not connected to anything else so current flows through both pickups.

Now to select the Bridge only, we connect the center lug to ground bypassing the Neck pickup entirely (eurrent follows the path of least resistance) To select the Neck only we connect the center lug to the + of the bridge which bypasses the bridge pickup entirely.

Does this clarify things?
 
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#205
Jon Clegg said:
I'll grossly simplify things to explain how the switching works: In the series scheme the + of the bridge pickup circuit (including the pickup, vol, tone) is wired directly to the output and the - of the bridge pickup circuit is wired directly to the center lug of the switch and the + of the neck pickup circuit with the - of the neck pickup connecting to ground. The switch is an ON-OFF-ON type, so in the center position the center lug is not connected to anything else so current flows through both pickups.

Now to select the Bridge only, we connect the center lug to ground bypassing the Neck pickup entirely (eurrent follows the path of least resistance) To select the Neck only we connect the center lug to the + of the bridge which bypasses the bridge pickup entirely.

Does this clarify things?
Click to expand...

It does, I had just never thought of it like that - something canceling something else to allow it to exist/flow, and the position where both n & b pu's flow at the same time is "off". (no cancelation on either) I get it but it sounds like a reverse-logic sort of thing.
 
#209
JIO said:
It does, I had just never thought of it like that - something canceling something else to allow it to exist/flow, and the position where both n & b pu's flow at the same time is "off". (no cancelation on either) I get it but it sounds like a reverse-logic sort of thing.
Click to expand...
Yeah we usually think of disconnecting things to turn them off, but shunting around them also works also in some cases. You'll see this technique used in amps sometimes for gain switching etc.
 
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#210
Verne Andru said:
Yup - as I posted earlier, that's the way Nate did things - arse-backwards.
Click to expand...

As much as I'm learning that, I still have a fascination with left field thinking which is why I want it back to original. :thumbsup: I wired my Teiscobird like my Teisco Del Rey ss - T pot is reversed: full up clockwise = more bass, full back counterclockwise = more treble. I actually agree with that logic for a bass guitar.:thumbsup:

Now that I think of it, the Coral DB has 2 stacked-controls and the bottom one is V. Normally the top knob is V, as on a first years Jazz bass. As Leo started that ball rolling, it's curious why Dano reversed it on that bass. For '68, it also still has reverse-wound tuners - when Fender moved away from that.
 
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#212
JIO said:
When you say (except for the grounds) - what specific grounds are you referring to and where should they be?
Click to expand...

I'm referring to the the circuit ground linking all the pots and switch (represented as a wire, marked with G's on the diagram). It was originally just a strip of foil that was pre-glued to the back of the pick-guard and grounded the pots and switch via contact/pressure.

I'm often a fan of originality, but I'd prefer soldered connections over pinched foil.

Rick
 
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#213
rickwrench said:
I'm referring to the the circuit ground linking all the pots and switch (represented as a wire, marked with G's on the diagram). It was originally just a strip of foil that was pre-glued to the back of the pick-guard and grounded the pots and switch via contact/pressure.

I'm often a fan of originality, but I'd prefer soldered connections over pinched foil.

Rick
Click to expand...

Yes, I see. I agree and had already run a wire linking all the pots/switch to the jack. It's pretty silent doing the grounding. My '66 Fender P-bass didn't come with a bridge ground - it's just what they did (or didn't do) then.
 
#214
I just saw a wiring diagram for the Fender "Greasebucket" circuit and it looks very similar to what Dano did on the Silvertone 1443 Hornet in the late '60s. Can't wait to get it back in action! The Neptone pu was shipped today so it'll be here by weeks end. I'm recording 4 songs with my band The Sean Conneries on Sunday at Get Reel Productions here in SF so maybe I can get it set up before... I may consider using it on one of the songs. I'm using my '68 Custom Kraft hollow-body on 2, and the Coral DB on the other two through my mic'd '76 Ampeg B15N with a late '60s JBL driver. We recorded 4 songs last year around this time, and I just plugged into the board then. It sounded good, but this time I want it to sound great! (and it will)

Here's one of our songs from last years recording session.

 
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#215
The Nep-Tone pu arrived and I installed it after a couple of needed modifications. Had to drill new screw holes - the ones drilled were far apart, maybe for the rear-loading type of install. Also had to snip the end off one foot as it hit the cavity wall - nothing my heavy-duty pliers couldn't remedy. (it's always something) Back together everything works as it should but I'm getting buzzing when touching the bridge pu. If I have the three-way switch at the bridge - no buzz. (?) The Nep-Tone had only two (hot & ground) wires unlike the two wires and bare shielding wire on the original B pu. It's a grounding issue that the N pu install created. Will run it down in the AM.

Got the intonation perfect after extending the bridge slot. The Dano/Silvertone electrical set-up is pretty different than my Coral. It's a bit less output to start with, but the N pu is strong and with the T rolled off it's pretty bassy, bassier than I can get the Coral. The B pu seems more trebly than before this set-up, but blending the two offers up some very nice toneage. More after I run down the grounding issue.

fullsizeoutput_1653.jpeg


fullsizeoutput_1654.jpeg
 
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#217
Verne Andru said:
If the new pickup is RWRP to the other, then you will get noise when you touch the pickup ground - which is the whole pickup on a lipstick. I had a similar issue when I flipped a bridge P-90 that had a metal casing - I had to flip it back and reverse the neck pup as I wasn't touching that one when I played.
Click to expand...

In the process of running down the buzz - now the new pu isn't working. In attempting to understand what happened, I noticed that the original 'B' pu has a strong magnetic pull at the base, and the Nep-tone has much less magnetic pull. I have no idea what that means. I'm to the point of taking it all apart and buying new pots, caps, resister & 3-way switch and completely rewiring it in a more standard wiring pattern. I have it wired exactly following the illustration and it doesn't work as it is supposed to. Plus, if what you say is true - I really don't want a bass where I have to avoid touching either pu. It's so frustrating.

I just ordered 4 CTS 500k pots, a Fender 3 way switch and a Switchcraft jack. Ran out of solder so need to pick some up tomorrow. I did my best to try and keep it 'authentic' but I've run out of patience. I just want it to work like a normal bass at this point.

There was some talk earlier in this thread of reversing the polarity - will I need to do that with the Nep-tone so I can have a no-buzz bass?
 
#218
OK since the Neptone has the negative lead tied to ground already, it has to be used as the Neck pickup (in terms of wiring if not in terms of physical position) in a traditional Dano series setup. The other pickup can be used as the Bridge (in terms of wiring) in the series setup since the negative lead is not tied to ground.
 
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#219
Jon Clegg said:
OK since the Neptone has the negative lead tied to ground already, it has to be used as the Neck pickup (in terms of wiring if not in terms of physical position) in a traditional Dano series setup. The other pickup can be used as the Bridge (in terms of wiring) in the series setup since the negative lead is not tied to ground.
Click to expand...

It is a neck pu and is marked as one - the other (original) is marked as a bridge "B" pu. I had it working last night and it only had the touching buzz of the bridge pu, which hadn't done that before. I checked everything and re-soldered a couple iffy points and then the neck pu didn't work - I have no idea what I did. I stared at it making sure every wire was correct which it was - no dice. That's when I gave up. I'm going to wire it with all new pots, caps, switch, wire and jack in a standard Gibson-style 2 pu/VT/VT configuration. I'm over attempting to make the quirky 50 yr old Dano system work. It should be able to have the same output as my Coral (same year, same pu's) - and that's what I want out of it.
 
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