"How bad is it?" Silvertone Hornet resurrection

[Verne Andru]

Teisco made a cool Longhorn clone in the '60s called "Phantom-B" (pictured) It was also badged "Kingston" and "Kimberly"

And speaking of cool potentially left handed basses... a Longhorn like a violin bass could easily be converted to a lefty due to its symmetrical design.

View attachment 3661140 View attachment 3661141 View attachment 3661145

That looks like a Dano/Coral longhorn archtop body with a Teisco neck - are you sure Teisco made that?

When eBay started a lot of previously "dead" inventory saw new life, including the Coral Longhorn archtop. Those were championed by Vinnie Bell who was a Coral endorser at the time. At his behest Dano hired Kawai in Japan to make the archtop bodies for the Firefly, Longhorn and IIRC a Violin shape. By the time Dano received the Longhorn's they were just about out of business so those bodies languished for many years in storage.

I built 3 guitars out of NOS Coral Longhorns before the supply ran out. I contacted Kawai and was told the molds had been tossed years prior so any new builds will require new tooling.

Here's my my luthier Paul Iverson holding Danedetto no. 1 (on the left) and no. 2 which we built for David Koltai (Pigtronix/Supro).

And here is no 1 and no 3, which is a 7 string and my main player these days. I got the body for the 7 from a fellow right here on Talkbass.

 

[JIO]

I gig with my 1443 and a fretless P-bass these days. The 1443 has mystery flats (dark blue silk wraps), and the P has 88's.
The 1443 has the bridge much more centered on the body vs most long scale basses. Compared to a P-bass bridge, which sits right on the heel, everything is shifted out several inches. Similar to the playing geometry of an ABG. I'm tall and like the shifted out geometry, despite the inherent neck dive that comes with it.

Are the repop rings stainless?

I had a stash of the late '60s Silvertone caps & resistor (like the ones in your avatar) that were installed in 1443 Hornets that I bought a while ago so I thought I'd return my Hornet to it's original wiring harness. I found a clear pic of one on-line and followed it exactly. Once doing so it all works but is not as would be expected for a nV/T bV/T 3-way switch. Either something I connected is incorrect or does the Silvertone have a quirky set-up? You being an owner/player of one I hope you can shed some light on this for me.

Here's the pics I found/followed -

Here's what is happening: Note - the (new) neck pu has less output than the (orig) bridge pu. I contacted Nep-Tone Pick-ups USA to advise on a 1443 specific neck pu replacement. My original bridge pu looks like the ones in these pics.

* When 3-way switch is in center - everything works as it should.

* When 3-way switch is at neck only, bridge pu stays on and gets louder at 10 and evens out
with the neck pu in output at 0. Turning neck V to 0 turns both pu's off. Bridge T at 0 makes the B-pu louder and at 10 makes it more even in output to N-pu. (doesn't act as T)

* When 3-way switch is in bridge only, everything works as it should.

So it's mostly buggy for the neck-only position. As it is of low output, I wouldn't be likely to use it solely anyway but As everything else works as it should, I'd like to get it all that way.

 

[Verne Andru]

The color coding on the wiring in your pics looks off, some of those components look newish and Dano never used foil shielding that I'm aware of so there's a good chance that wiring isn't original.

Right off the top the green wire from the 3-way (center lug) looks like it should be going to the hot lead on the output jack whereas the illo shows it going to the center lug on the neck vol pot. The red lead on the 3-way should be coming off a tone pot whereas here it looks to be coming from the bridge volume pot. The yellow lead is correctly coming from the neck tone pot output.

That said, Nate Daniels wiring was always funky. He tended to approach wiring and amps in a "backward" fashion - i.e. while we logically wire hot leads first then do the grounds, he would do things like a hot ground and work from there. While I'm not sure Daniels was an electrical engineer, he did invent the push-pull amp topology that's been widely used since (any amp with more than 1 power tube uses his design), so he was no slouch when it came to electronics. The wiring on my double-neck [replicated by Evets from Nate's originals] is so quirky I've not bothered to try and reverse-engineer it.

 

[JIO]

The color coding on the wiring in your pics looks off, some of those components look newish and Dano never used foil shielding that I'm aware of so there's a good chance that wiring isn't original.

Right off the top the green wire from the 3-way (center lug) looks like it should be going to the hot lead on the output jack whereas the illo shows it going to the center lug on the neck vol pot. The red lead on the 3-way should be coming off a tone pot whereas here it looks to be coming from the bridge volume pot. The yellow lead is correctly coming from the neck tone pot output.

That said, Nate Daniels wiring was always funky. He tended to approach wiring and amps in a "backward" fashion - i.e. while we logically wire hot leads first then do the grounds, he would do things like a hot ground and work from there. While I'm not sure Daniels was an electrical engineer, he did invent the push-pull amp topology that's been widely used since (any amp with more than 1 power tube uses his design), so he was no slouch when it came to electronics. The wiring on my double-neck [replicated by Evets from Nate's originals] is so quirky I've not bothered to try and reverse-engineer it.

The colour codes of the wires are consistent with others I've seen. (like this pic) Maybe the foil was added but all the components are original and look like the ones I have other than the blobby .022uf cap over the bridge T pot. Mine looks like the one below. I've looked everywhere on line and so far this looks correct.

 

[rickwrench]

I've got a 1443 wiring diagram posted:
http://www.rickwrench.com/images-sounds/guitars/silvertone-1443/Silvertone_1443_wiring.pdf

This is the correct and stock (except for the grounds) series wiring, as far as I've seen, for a 1443 with a standard + RWRP pair. Pots viewed from the back.
I have the main ground represented as a wire, though on the 1443's it was actually a strip of foil about a 3/4" wide. The diagram also shows an extra ground wire running to the bridge. When I've rewired them back to "stock-ish", I drill a small hole through the lower bridge screw hole into the routed area and feed a bare wire through to ground the bridge via the bottom screw.
It also sounds like your 3 way switch is wonky. It is an "on-off-on" switch, btw. Not the typical guitar "on-on-on" 3 way. Danelectro used the cheapest parts available and the on-off-on 3 way was apparently on sale.
With a RWRP pick-up, when wired correctly, the middle position should be hum cancelling and noticeably fuller than either single pick-up position.
Nep-tone will wind a correct RWRP pick-up. But, you need to find out the polarity of your stock pick-up first to see if you already have one.

 

[Verne Andru]

That wiring is crazy! Nate certainly had his own way of doing things.

Seymour Duncan makes a RWRP lipstick set (can buy individuals) that matches the first reissues which are supposed to be a match for the originals.

 

[JIO]

I was advised by Doug at Nep-Tone Pickups USA to order their STOCK lipstick pu. They will send a top-loading bracket to match the original. (pic of my original bridge pu) Want to get this thing in top vintage stripe again.

That wiring is crazy! Nate certainly had his own way of doing things.

Seymour Duncan makes a RWRP lipstick set (can buy individuals) that matches the first reissues which are supposed to be a match for the originals.

I saw those - and they are around the same price. And yes - it is crazy but it must have worked so I want to get mine working using his original specs.

 

[rickwrench]

I was advised by Doug at Nep-Tone Pickups USA to order their STOCK lipstick pu.

So the neck must be the RWRP. Good to know. I've never checked the specific polarity of each pick-up, just stuck them together to see if they wanted to be face to face or not.

 

[Verne Andru]

And yes - it is crazy but it must have worked so I want to get mine working using his original specs.

As with all things Danelectro, it works in a quirky Nathan Daniels sorta way .

 

[Jon Clegg]

Intersting face is that the Lipstick covers offer pretty good shielding on their own; I built one lipbucker as RWRP and the other with both pickups unmodified; no appreciable difference in noise, 60Hz, etc.

 

[JIO]

So the neck must be the RWRP. Good to know. I've never checked the specific polarity of each pick-up, just stuck them together to see if they wanted to be face to face or not.

So are you saying the direction the pu is installed will have effect over output? This is the newer replacement neck pu that has weak output. I thought about swapping it for one of the two I have for the Scarab Deluxe Bass and realized it had the exact same sticker on it! ~ I bought them because they were sold as higher-output so I hope that means the one in the Hornet is failing or whatever.

 

[Verne Andru]

The output from lipsticks are pretty low across the board. That wiring topology has a resister from the neck V to T which may account for some signal attenuation from that pickup. Best way to check is to reverse the pickups - put the neck in the bridge, and etc. - that will isolate whether it's the pickup or the wiring.

Direction of the pickup won't make a difference to output. If you put the 2 pups face to face and they attract then the magnets are Reverse Polarity to each other and vice-a-versa.

The direction of the wiring will impact output as in Reverse Wiring or not - if you're doing RW and don't do RP the pickups will be out of phase which will case a drop in output. If the pickups have the same polarity and you reverse the wiring on one you also get an out of phase situation and some volume loss.

The nice thing about the original Alnico lipsticks is the polarity of the magnets can be changed without taking the pup apart. There's a guy in my town with a "machine" he uses to flip polarity for $5 a pup, which is a lot cheaper than buying a new pickup.

 

[JIO]

That looks like a Dano/Coral longhorn archtop body with a Teisco neck - are you sure Teisco made that?

When eBay started a lot of previously "dead" inventory saw new life, including the Coral Longhorn archtop. Those were championed by Vinnie Bell who was a Coral endorser at the time. At his behest Dano hired Kawai in Japan to make the archtop bodies for the Firefly, Longhorn and IIRC a Violin shape. By the time Dano received the Longhorn's they were just about out of business so those bodies languished for many years in storage.

I built 3 guitars out of NOS Coral Longhorns before the supply ran out. I contacted Kawai and was told the molds had been tossed years prior so any new builds will require new tooling.

Here's my my luthier Paul Iverson holding Danedetto no. 1 (on the left) and no. 2 which we built for David Koltai (Pigtronix/Supro).
View attachment 3667514

And here is no 1 and no 3, which is a 7 string and my main player these days. I got the body for the 7 from a fellow right here on Talkbass.
View attachment 3667515

That's cool that you knew about the NOS hollow-bodies and got some. I knew that Kawai was making them from my book on '60s vintage Japanese guitars. And yes Teisco sold them with their hs badge. (as the pic I posted illustrates) I really want a ss bass from that same time called the Firebird. Don't know but possibly made by Kawai for them. Same hs/badge as the longhorn Phantom. I'd take either but the design of the Firebird is just so unique.

 

[JIO]

The output from lipsticks are pretty low across the board. That wiring topology has a resister from the neck V to T which may account for some signal attenuation from that pickup. Best way to check is to reverse the pickups - put the neck in the bridge, and etc. - that will isolate whether it's the pickup or the wiring.

Direction of the pickup won't make a difference to output. If you put the 2 pups face to face and they attract then the magnets are Reverse Polarity to each other and vice-a-versa.

The direction of the wiring will impact output as in Reverse Wiring or not - if you're doing RW and don't do RP the pickups will be out of phase which will case a drop in output. If the pickups have the same polarity and you reverse the wiring on one you also get an out of phase situation and some volume loss.

The nice thing about the original Alnico lipsticks is the polarity of the magnets can be changed without taking the pup apart. There's a guy in my town with a "machine" he uses to flip polarity for $5 a pup, which is a lot cheaper than buying a new pickup.

When I got it - the "B" pu (what else could it mean?) was in the neck position, and the new weaker one was at the bridge. As a player who hangs at the bridge - I wanted the beef there. So the imagined scenario is the original neck pu vanished and when they installed a new one (like I have it) and it being a P-preference person - they swapped pu positions. I want more of the neck pu anyway, I like starting out with an "even playing field" ... ... that translates on a few levels! - I'll be here all week folks, be sure and tip the waitresses!

 

[JIO]

So for the interim waiting to get the Nep-Tone pu, I'll leave it disassembled. While the strings were off, I extended the wood bridge slot in the base-plate so it could be lowered more. When I intoned it, I could get close but it needed a bit more southern length. I'm confident it'll happen now that I moved it. I learned that working on the Coral - same deal.

 

[rickwrench]

So the neck must be the RWRP

Gah, Bridge! I meant Bridge.

Rick

 

[JIO]

Gah, Bridge! I meant Bridge.

Rick

So your 1443 Hornet controls do what is usually expected of them?

 

[rickwrench]

So your 1443 Hornet controls do what is usually expected of them?

Yes, it works exactly as a series wired instrument should. The 3-way switch gives you quick neck/both/bridge.
And since the pick-ups are wired in series, when on the middle setting, you can also blend using the 2 volumes.
Les Paul players should be so lucky.

Rick

 

[JIO]

Yes, it works exactly as a series wired instrument should. The 3-way switch gives you quick neck/both/bridge.
And since the pick-ups are wired in series, when on the middle setting, you can also blend using the 2 volumes.
Les Paul players should be so lucky.

Rick

Cool - well, I'll just have to run down the bridge pu issue... maybe the new pu will do it.

 

[JIO]

Intersting face is that the Lipstick covers offer pretty good shielding on their own; I built one lipbucker as RWRP and the other with both pickups unmodified; no appreciable difference in noise, 60Hz, etc.

A few questions here, from what has been said is there a chance the added new pu is not in series with the original bridge pu and that's why it's low output? Or.., is it this; on a Fender Jazz, the neck pu is of different output/ohms than a bridge pu so they balance. Would two pu basses with lipsticks be like that also? If so - then I'm going to guess the replaced neck pu may not the correct one for the neck position. (?)

Both pu's have two wires and a ground (bare-wire/sheathing) - on the new one the two wires are red & white. On the original - both are the same colour. (black or dark blue) I notice in the pic I posted above that the ground wires are knotted, and I'm guessing that was done at the factory to differentiate them from the hot wires. When I got the bass with its funky/non-original wiring - I re-wired the pu's the same. As it had been messed with, there was no knot for the ground wire but the original must be correct as it has strong output. I know different brands use different colour codes for their wires, so I currently have the (newer) neck pu so the red is hot and it creates output, but it is weak. Are all lipsticks wired in series? Or is there a chance the newer neck pu is wired in parallel? I made it clear to Doug at Nep-tone what my situation was including pics of both of my pu's so I'm going to assume he will send a neck specific pu in series which I'm hoping will solve this problem.