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how do I fix this?

#21
pilotjones said:
Yes, I know that hot-pot hide glue is fantastic in many applications. It's also used throughout piano actions, in which strong physical demands are put on the joints.

Also that every glue has it's place.

So far, I've only heard negatives, warnings and failure stories about liquid hide glue. I definitely respect your woodworking experience, so, what would you consider appropriate applications for liquid hide glue in luthiery? From what I've gotten so far, it seems as though it might be good for non-stressed or ornamental joints, but not for anything structural. Is this right in your view? Or way off base?
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First, let me apologize if I sounded a little cranky last night - no offense intended. :) Most of the "horror stories" I've heard about hide glue were based on a lack of understanding or misuse.

All glues aren't created equal, and pre-mixed hide glues are no different. My favorite pre-mixed (cold) hide glue is sold by Pat Edwards, the founder of the American School of French Marquetry:
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My experience with factory-made cold hide glue, e.g. Titebond, haven't been as positive.

All adhesives have characteristics that have to be thoughtfully considered during the selection process. If someone mistakenly thinks, "glue is glue" and uses an adhesive inappropriately, a failure can result.

Some of hide glue's attributes make it superior to common PVA and aliphatic resin woodworking glues is certain applications, e.g., hide glue doesn't creep, while standard white and yellow glues do, making hide glue, epoxy, and urea-formaldehyde adhesives better suited to bent laminations in which several layers of wood are glued together and bent around a form. That said, because it is reversible, I wouldn't use hide glue to laminate a rocker for a chair destined to sit outdoors in someone's yard.

One of the reasons hide glue is used widely in the repair of antique furniture and fiddles is because it doesn't destroy the surrounding wood fiber in the event of a joint failure, and because - unlike other adhesives - fresh hide glue will stick to cured hide glue. When future repairs are inevitable, as with chairs and fiddles, hide glue has distinct advantages over several modern adhesives. For example, weakened hide glue is used deliberately when attaching the front of an upright bass to its sides precisely because stronger glue wouldn't make future disassembly possible without damaging the wood fibers.

I can't tell you how many chairs I've repaired successfully because hide glue was used in the original construction - if yellow glue or epoxy had been used, these chairs wouldn't have been repairable without replacing some parts; the initial use of hide glue literally extended the life of these chairs by another hundred years.

Several months ago Fine Woodworking magazine conducted a review of woodworking adhesives and, when used in a suitable context, hide glue performed very well.
 
#22
Fixed and painted....

SL730113.jpg
 
#25
Nope...not yet. The neck has yet to be refinished.
Any ideas on a quick easy neck finish. All I have to do is sand the whole back and then do whatever.

Something quick, simple, wipe-on wipe-off.


Matt

BTW - The 80's rock! .....and w/ that headstock, I just had to!
:hyper: :bassist:
 
#27
Yes, the gel wipe on products work well. Just make sure you have a clean surface before applying. They're basically a polyurethane varnish with a thickening agent added to make it easy to wipe on.
 
#29
mikeyswood said:
You have an easy fix. Get some Franklin Hide Glue and and reglue the joint.
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Premixed hide glue must be VERY fresh to be worth bothering with. I don't use hide glue, but all the builders at MIMF think the liquid hide glue is inferior to fresh hot hide glue.

A less risky proposition would be to use Franklin Original TiteBond (not II or III), or slow set epoxy.

Scarf joints are very strong due to the straight grain and long gluing surface, but this joint failed probably due to poor quality glue, or just not enough glue.

This is a fairly simple repair, and if glued properly will never fail again.

There two kinds of scarf joints. This is what I call the "exposed" type, and the fingerboard is part of the gluing system. The other style is what I call "hidden" because you don't see the joint, as it's in the back of the headstock, and often covered by a "backstrap" veneer. I think this is a stronger version as well, but is a bit more work.

This is the style I do:

DSC02722.jpg


DSC02736.jpg
 
#31
I've always disliked that style of scarf joint.

I think the attractions are the neck shaft can be shorter, since you are splicing on the whole head, and some seem to feel the fingerboard adds strength.

You also don't have to worry about putting veneer on the back of the head, though some guitars with that scarf don't bother, and you can see the scarf on the beck of the head, which looks nice than on the neck.

But even this style of scarf is better than a band sawn neck IMO.
 
#33
Stone Age said:
You mean Flat sawn (sp?) wood? I'm a CT follower/worshiper, so that's been marked a no no for me too. I've seen some good necks like that, but I've seen Squires with a flat sawn necks that flexed like rubber.
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no. he means cutting the neck/headstock out with a bandsaw, including the headstock tilt.

It ends up being weaker that way, because the grain is crossing through the headstock instead of being parallel to it.

A scarf joint will be stronger assuming it's properly glued.
 
#35
Yep, with you there. Gibson and the like seem to have a real problem with that. I've been convinced scarfing is the way to go. I do see similar structural risks with this type of scarf though. The fretboard shouldn't be trying to hold the neck together, IMO.
 
#36
Stone Age said:
Yep, with you there. Gibson and the like seem to have a real problem with that. I've been convinced scarfing is the way to go. I do see similar structural risks with this type of scarf though. The fretboard shouldn't be trying to hold the neck together, IMO.
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The fretboard's not holding the neck together, it just looks that way.

The glue on the scarf itself will be doing pretty much all the work. The fretboard joint across the scarf will add some strength for sure, but strength wise it shouldn't be all that different from a scarf in the headstock.
 

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