How do you control stage volume when the drummer has IEMs?

[Rockin Mike]

Just played our first 2 gigs with the drummer on IEMs. Over the course of the evening he played louder and louder until the singers couldn't hear themselves and I couldn't hear my rig.
I know turning up the monitors and amps is not the answer.
Is there some technique with the IEMs that leads to the drummer not playing so loud?
I thought of turning up the drums and/or turning down the guitar/bass/vocals, has anyone tried that in this situation?

I'm sure he's not aware he was doing it and would deny the problem if discussed.

 

[EastCoastThump]

I'm sure he's not aware he was doing it and would deny the problem if discussed.

Even if I were *certain* of this, I'd talk w/ the drummer before doing anything else.

Beyond that, think about a few different approaches:

1. If he's using universal fit, lead him toward better-isolated earbuds.
   
2. Put very little in his IEM mix besides drums, just a little of lead vocal and whatever he needs to keep his place in the songs. He's less likely to play louder if he's already threatening to swamp his own mix at sound-check volumes.
   
3. Give him a way to make just his drums louder in his IEMS (if you're using a wifi mixer, put a smartphone or tablet at his drum position controlling just his IEM mix)
4. Hard limit his drums *just* in his IEM mix so that playing drums louder either leaves his IEM volume stable *or* kicks in (intentionally) nasty sounding limiting on his drums in his IEM mix.
5. Combine one or more of the above with IEMs for the rest of the band so that you and the singers can at least hear what you need.

 

[Rockin Mike]

Derrico1, thanks for good suggestions. I had already considered #2, but 3 and 4 are excellent ideas too.
IEMs for the whole band may happen sometime in the future, but for now there is financial and ideological resistance.

 

[seamonkey]

Electronic drums are a great answer, the drummer can play at any comfortable pounding levels and not blow everyone away. Edrums sound great, keyboards have been using samplers for years and enjoy full dynamics and killer sound.

Or put the drums behind a plexi sheild to protect the rest of the band.

I agree on Drummer should have his/her own mix that they pick and adjust. It will likely be a mix with more drums than anything else.

Turn off compression in the IEM's for the drummer. Or add "Expansion", the reverse of compression, for the drums in the drummers IEM. This could give the drummer a better dynamic feel, or fool them when they play loud into hearing that they are really loud.

Tactile buttkicker type transducers bolted to the stool also gives them feedback they desire.

 

[RoadRanger]

IMO IEM's for drummers are great for removing from them the ability to know how loud they are playing . OTOH it's a rare drummer that has much ability to dial it down - pounders are plentiful . A smaller kit helps a LOT - but good luck trying to get your drumtard to cut back to a reasonable-for-smaller-rooms kit . I've had the pleasure to work with (both playing and doing sound) music school trained (and the occasional self-trained) drummers that can dial it back to non-amplified acoustic guitar levels so nobody's gonna BS me that it isn't possible .

 

[DirtDog]

One of the things that I wanted to try but didn't get the chance to when we were using IEMs was to mic the room and mix that into IEM mix. the IEMs were just so dry and sterile. We used the personal mixer approach so each of us had our own mix which I'm sure created volume issues (too much, not enough) on thier own. Turned out I got some sort of inner-ear imbalance from using IEMs, so I went back to the floor monitor before leaving that band.

All that to say, maybe mic'ing the room and adding it to the mix will give your drummer - all of you, really - a better sense of that what's happening on the other side of your earbuds.

 

[s0c9]

One of the things that I wanted to try but didn't get the chance to when we were using IEMs was to mic the room and mix that into IEM mix. the IEMs were just so dry and sterile. We used the personal mixer approach so each of us had our own mix which I'm sure created volume issues (too much, not enough) on thier own.

I can put as much "wet" (effects) into my monitor mix as I want, and can control that on the X32 with X32Q on my iPad. We tried the ambient mics route.. but not for long.. too many issues with the artifacts they added to the mix, so we dropped them. For some, they may work..
But my IEM mix is FAR from DRY!!

 

[Rockin Mike]

I lowered the level of guitar, bass, and vocals in his in-ears.
I took off compression on the drums at the board. I don't think it has an expander and I don't have a way to experiment with it anyway.
There's a limiter built-in to the Rolls PM55 we're using to drive his in-ears but I don't want to disable that. It could become important for safety if he's wearing his in-ears and a loud sound goes through the PA.

The theory I'm working on now is that the rest of the band is quieter in his in-ears then he'll naturally play down to that level.
He's a good drummer, but instinctive. I'm not sure he would be self-aware enough to consciously keep his sound down all night.

Thanks for all the good suggestions.

 

[Big Hoss]

stuff a bunch of laundry in the drum kit.

 

[DirtDog]

I can put as much "wet" (effects) into my monitor mix as I want, and can control that on the X32 with X32Q on my iPad. We tried the ambient mics route.. but not for long.. too many issues with the artifacts they added to the mix, so we dropped them. For some, they may work..
But my IEM mix is FAR from DRY!!

I suppose with an ambient mic, you'd need to experiment with placement on a room by room basis so maybe not worth it? Oh well...

As for dry, I guess I wasn't describing FX on the signal. I suppose "processed" or "lifeless" or "not dynamic" or "flat" was what I was going for. We used the X32 with the P16-M monitoring system and into IEMs (I used the Shure 215). I was putting my bass thru preamp/DI so no low end on stage. That's where it was sterile for me. I also thought the p16-M system pretty lacking. Never could get anything decent dialled in at a volume I could work with. Might have been the signal being sent my way, might have been the ear buds., or a combination of things. BL/PA owner never took the time to sort that kind of thing out. Anyways, wasn't long before I switched back to a floor monitor and I was happy again.

 

[s0c9]

Anyways, wasn't long before I switched back to a floor monitor and I was happy again.

Some folks don't adjust to the IEM mix.. for the reasons you described. I had 2 guitar players with same reaction when the band went all IEM. They went back to wedges... and recently one was forced back to IEM's because of warnings from his audiologist and hearing test results.
He's not terribly happy with them, but judicious use of effects and stereo placement helps.
You'll NEVER replace that "amp in the room" feeling you get with thump or bottom behind you.. and if that's your sole source of experience with which to compare, then you'll have challenges.

For me, I've practiced thru phones for many years, so going IEM for both guitar and bass was no big deal, and using Aviom's or the P16's was just as easy to get a decent mix. I guess it depends on what you are used to...
However, my ears thank me, and I haven't had to walk around the stage looking for a good "mix" spot for years!!
Best of luck..

 

[DirtDog]

Yeah, I didn't really adjust well.

At one gig I tried pulling out one ear bud to hear what was going on in the room (we had some other, um, personality driven issues we were dealing with at the time - well documented on TB - and I wanted to hear what was going on FOH). For about two weeks afterwards I had some sort of inner-ear imbalance with a dizzy, sometimes nauseous, feeling. Then I researched what can happen when you use only one IEM!!

Same night as that gig, the sub blew up and I ended firing up my amp/cab for bass sound - and that was the beginning of the end of IEMs for me.

I practice using headphones 95% of the time and have no issues. Mind you, I can tweak the tone and mix to my heart's desire under the controlled conditions in my studio.

I didn't get the chance to tinker around with the X32 (rack) mixer iPad app when I was in the that band, so have no idea of what was or was not happening with the monitor aux signals that were sent our way. Given what your are describing and what my experience was with the same gear, something wasn't right from the source. Can't put lipstick on a pig!

As far as that sweet spot on stage is concerned, I'm the lead vocalist so I make sure the sweet spot is where my mic is!!