How do you Define a Position for Electric Bass?

[RT25897]

Hello!

The title sums up my question. I'm new to electric bass and starting to work on scales and arpeggios. I'm primarily a guitar player. One of the popular methods for playing scales/arpeggios on guitar is the 12-position system. This is basically 1 finger per fret with stretches from the index finger and pinky if needed. So you're playing all 12 keys in each position. Is this possible to do on electric bass? What's the best way to think about scales and position playing?

Thanks!

 

[Chris Laarman]

Hello!

The title sums up my question. I'm new to electric bass and starting to work on scales and arpeggios. I'm primarily a guitar player. One of the popular methods for playing scales/arpeggios on guitar is the 12-position system. This is basically 1 finger per fret with stretches from the index finger and pinky if needed. So you're playing all 12 keys in each position. Is this possible to do on electric bass? What's the best way to think about scales and position playing?

Thanks!

Being a self-taught amateur, the "one finger per fret" is how I play. (So I'm curious to see the answers of the professionals.)

No, I don't have hands big enough to cover the four lowest frets on my long-scale basses, but at least it minimizes the shifting.

 

[SteveCS]

...
One of the popular methods for playing scales/arpeggios on guitar is the 12-position system. This is basically 1 finger per fret with stretches from the index finger and pinky if needed. So you're playing all 12 keys in each position. Is this possible to do on electric bass? What's the best way to think about scales and position playing?
...

I'm not sure there is (as yet) any truly universal established electric bass 'pegagogy' as there is wtih the double-bass, although the 'hive mind' could probably come up with something pretty close. A great many electric bass players adopt elements of these methods but they are not universally applicable for a number of reasons, not least of which is the shorter scale and significantly reduced physical demands of the electric compared to the string bass. In the Simandl double-bass method, each 'position' encompasses 3 notes covering a single whole tone. The only exception is the "Half' position which covers 4 notes because it includes the open strings:

On the G string
½: G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb
I: A, A#/Bb, Cb/B
II: Bb, Cb/B, C
There is an 'intermediate' position between II and III that covers B/Cb, C & Db/C#
III: C, C#/Db, D
There is an 'intermediate' position between III and IV covering Db/C#, D, D#/Eb
IV: D, D#/Eb, E
V: Eb/D#, E, F/E#
There is another 'intermediate' position between V and VI covering E, F/E#, F#/Gb
VI: F, F#/Gb, G
There is a final 'intermediate' between VI and VII covering F#/Gb, G and G#/Ab
VII: G, Ab/G#, A

At this point the method transitions into 'thumb' position which has no analogy with the electric bass.

It is worth noting that the Simandl method is a 3-finger method that uses 1,2,4 up to the V/VI intermediate position, then 1,2,3 in positions VI and higher on the G string and only 2 fingers on D and A. E string is excluded in these upper positions. A good number of electric players, myself included, transition to a 4-finger (1 finger per 'fret') method somewhere around IV at which point the nomenclature becomes meaningless because you are playing across adjacent positions. And all strings are 'fair game' for all fingers. It is also not unusual to see forwards and backwards extensions being used in pretty much any position on the electric bass, simply because the physical constraints of the double-bass are not present. In many ways the electric bass 4-finger approach is closer to 'cello than double-bass, so you might find some useful guidance there.

Regarding scales and arpeggios in the context of a 4-string bass, aside from the few in lower positions where you can use open strings, pretty much all of them require shifting once you go beyond one octave+4th. Even with a 6-string, at least one shift is necessary to cover 2 octaves (unless you tune like a guitar with the major third between strings 3 and 2).

YMMV

 

[jj.833]

I've never seen anybody really using the double bass position system described above for electric bass.
In some older books, I've seen the guitar position system used (1st position = 1st fret, 2nd position = 2nd fret etc.), but only for academic reasons, without much real merit.

As for finger placement, you use either double bass fingering (1-2-4 for two semitones reach), or guitar fingering (1-2-3-4, finger per fret). Despite what common reason would say, both fingering methods are important, as you can see when watching famous bass players from live concerts. As a guitarist, you might want to see this video on left hand specifics on the long bass neck:

As for what to play, the fingering shape system used by guitarist is of way less use on bass, because to play the bass well, you need to know what tones you play and why. I try to teach my students to get used to say internally the name of any note they play. It's exhausting at the beginning, but well worth the effort if you move further on.

 

[chris_b]

I don't have big hands so I use the Simandl system, which is fingers 1, 2 and 4, from fret 1 to about fret 7, then after that it depends what line I'm playing. It can continue to be Simandl or a mixture including 1 finger per fret. If you lay your hand across the strings, your index and pinky will probably be covering an octave. That's 3 frets. IMO that's optimal.

The only 2 rules I have is; never stretch and don't do anything which causes discomfort.

I see many bass players anchor their thumbs and try to reach frets from there. Your thumb/hand should be mobile, ie moving as required so that your fingers are placed directly above the frets you want to play.

I see many guitarists only using 1, 2 and 3. That's fine because guitar frets are much closer together. On bass the pinky is a critical part of your technique. It gives you the reach without the need to stretch. Watch the good bass players. Their fretting hands can be moving every note.

 

[Killing Floor]

I can palm a basketball so that extra fret span isn’t a hurdle. But I grew up playing violin so I admit I fall into low and tight positions readily.
But take whatever advice your teacher gives. All our hands are shaped differently and it’s ok.

 

[mambo4]

+1 to Adam Neely's Left hand technique video above.

What's the best way to think about scales and position playing?

I don't think there is a "best"
Most beginners start learning scales as fingering patterns in 4 Fret "boxes", which is a great way to start and beginners can get a lot of mileage out of it. But it can be limiting. I prefer pac-man's sure-fire scale practice method because it breaks you out of the four fret "box" and teaches you the notes of a scale on the entire neck - which is more true and less limiting.

 

[Les Fret]

Look here: https://www.talkbass.com/threads/using-one-finger-per-fret-and-being-uncomfortable.1622626/

 

[RT25897]

Thanks everyone for the help! It really means a lot. I have a much better idea now.

 

[Bass]

For me, first position is with the index finger on the first fret, second position has the index finger on the second fret, etc...

Ariane Cap has a method that divides the fingerboard into 5 areas. Open area includes open strings and Frets 1 to 4, Area No. 1 stretches from Frets 1 to 6 etc... There are 5 patterns in each area with which the scales can be played. This is a one-finger-per-fret system, and shifting is required.

 

[RT25897]

On the G string
½: G, G#/Ab, A, A#/Bb
I: A, A#/Bb, Cb/B
II: Bb, Cb/B, C
There is an 'intermediate' position between II and III that covers B/Cb, C & Db/C#
III: C, C#/Db, D
There is an 'intermediate' position between III and IV covering Db/C#, D, D#/Eb
IV: D, D#/Eb, E
V: Eb/D#, E, F/E#
There is another 'intermediate' position between V and VI covering E, F/E#, F#/Gb
VI: F, F#/Gb, G
There is a final 'intermediate' between VI and VII covering F#/Gb, G and G#/Ab
VII: G, Ab/G#, A

Does this mean these are the scales you can play in these positions? For example, can you play A, A#/Bb, Cb/B only in the II position?

 

[RT25897]

For me, first position is with the index finger on the first fret, second position has the index finger on the second fret, etc...

Ariane Cap has a method that divides the fingerboard into 5 areas. Open area includes open strings and Frets 1 to 4, Area No. 1 stretches from Frets 1 to 6 etc... There are 5 patterns in each area with which the scales can be played. This is a one-finger-per-fret system, and shifting is required.

Can you give me a link or page that talks about this more? Thanks!

 

[Bass]

Details are found in the book: "The Pattern System for the Bass Player".

You can discover the basic concept for yourself. Figure out each of the major scales across a 4 or 5 fret area. Be sure to include notes that extend above or below the 8 note scale, and fall within the range of frets.

When all the scales are drawn on a fretboard diagram, repeating patterns emerge.

 

[SteveCS]

Does this mean these are the scales you can play in these positions? For example, can you play A, A#/Bb, Cb/B only in the II position?

No, those are just the notes in that position on the G string. There are 3 notes each on the other strings, foe example on the A string the notes in II are B, C/B#, C#/Db. In this and other DB methods, almost all 1-octave scales require at least one shift. For example the C major scale over 1 octave could be played over positions I and II:
C: Position I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
D: Position I - open 2nd string
E: Position I - 1st finger 2nd fret
F: Position I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
G: Position I - open 2nd string
A: Position I - 1st finger 2nd fret
--- shift ---
B: Position II - 2nd finger 4th fret
C: Position II - 4th finger 5th fret

The Db scale, on the other hand, uses the I, ½ and II/III and extensive shifting because there are no open strings available:

Db: I - 4th finger 4th fret
--- shift ---
Eb: ½ - 1st finger 1st fret
--- shift ---
F: I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
Gb: I - 4th finger 4th fret
--- shift ---
Ab: ½ - 1st finger 1st fret
Bb: ½ - 4th finger 3rd fret
--- shift ---
C: II/III - 2nd finger 5th fret
Db: II/III - 4th finger 6th fret

Of course some scales can be played without shifting, e.g. F and Bb major, E, A, B, F# minor (harm. and nat.) in ½-position. G can be played in position I if you ingore that fact that the requisite open G falls within the ½-position, but since the hand need not move it seems a somewhat technical distinction.

But what is the point of all this rambling on? It strikes me when looking back at the electric bass method books I used in the past that the main focus was on playing 'in position' using a 4-finger method. Shifting was often glossed over - it was frequently viewed as 'advanced' and therefore somehow 'difficult' or 'tricky'. As a consequence, shifting is often the weakest part of an electric bass players technique. With the DB methods, shifting is an integral element introduced, practiced and normalised right from the start. It is rare to see a double-bass player afraid of shifting, but it is commonplace in electric players.

 

[Don Kasper]

As a consequence, shifting is often the weakest part of an electric bass players technique. With the DB methods, shifting is an integral element introduced, practiced and normalised right from the start. It is rare to see a double-bass player afraid of shifting, but it is commonplace in electric players.

No Lie Told.
Thanks, SteveCS, for your ongoing solid advice and insightful analysis.
IMFO, of course.

 

[RT25897]

No, those are just the notes in that position on the G string. There are 3 notes each on the other strings, foe example on the A string the notes in II are B, C/B#, C#/Db. In this and other DB methods, almost all 1-octave scales require at least one shift. For example the C major scale over 1 octave could be played over positions I and II:
C: Position I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
D: Position I - open 2nd string
E: Position I - 1st finger 2nd fret
F: Position I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
G: Position I - open 2nd string
A: Position I - 1st finger 2nd fret
--- shift ---
B: Position II - 2nd finger 4th fret
C: Position II - 4th finger 5th fret

The Db scale, on the other hand, uses the I, ½ and II/III and extensive shifting because there are no open strings available:

Db: I - 4th finger 4th fret
--- shift ---
Eb: ½ - 1st finger 1st fret
--- shift ---
F: I - 2nd finger 3rd fret
Gb: I - 4th finger 4th fret
--- shift ---
Ab: ½ - 1st finger 1st fret
Bb: ½ - 4th finger 3rd fret
--- shift ---
C: II/III - 2nd finger 5th fret
Db: II/III - 4th finger 6th fret

Of course some scales can be played without shifting, e.g. F and Bb major, E, A, B, F# minor (harm. and nat.) in ½-position. G can be played in position I if you ingore that fact that the requisite open G falls within the ½-position, but since the hand need not move it seems a somewhat technical distinction.

But what is the point of all this rambling on? It strikes me when looking back at the electric bass method books I used in the past that the main focus was on playing 'in position' using a 4-finger method. Shifting was often glossed over - it was frequently viewed as 'advanced' and therefore somehow 'difficult' or 'tricky'. As a consequence, shifting is often the weakest part of an electric bass players technique. With the DB methods, shifting is an integral element introduced, practiced and normalised right from the start. It is rare to see a double-bass player afraid of shifting, but it is commonplace in electric players.

Thanks so much for the insight. Do you typically approach scales/position playing with the double bass technique then? Or do you do a hybrid approach of the double bass method plus 1 finger per fret 4 finger method?

 

[OldShark]

As you are familiar with guitar scales, I'd like to disregard double bass technique and point at the similarities between guitar and bass guitar, related to standard tuning of both instruments (so EADG on bass). If these hints are obvious to you, please ignore them...

Bass is simply one octave deeper tuned than your lower 4 guitar strings, so any pattern/scale you can play on the lower 4 guitar strings will work on bass, too, if the span isn't too wide (but of course it is on the lowest frets!). The scale of a typical long scale bass is around 1/3 longer than a typical guitar scale, so the space between frets starting with 5th fret on bass is rather similar to the space between nut and 1st fret on guitar and so on. This allows to take over some guitar practice to bass:

Say, you would play a one-and-a-have octave G major scale on guitar starting with middle finger on E string 3rd fret and go up to C with pinky on G string 5th fret. You could play the same pattern on bass shifted 5 frets up, so starting in 8th fret. That would be a C major scale with similar hand span.

As stated, for lower frets, you will have to adapt other techniques like 124 fingering and more shifts, but the general patterns might still work for you. And bass does not have the irregular interval guitar has between G and B string (a major third) but uses perfect forths only. That makes patterns way more consistent than on guitar.

I hope that's at last a starting point.

 

[the_Ryan]

Thanks so much for the insight. Do you typically approach scales/position playing with the double bass technique then? Or do you do a hybrid approach of the double bass method plus 1 finger per fret 4 finger method?

Caveat: I am not Steve, but I am primarily a double bassist who does play bass guitar. I do not want to say that anyone's individual approach is wrong or worse than mine because everyone's bodies and instruments are different and what works for me may not work for you. This is just how I think about things and what works for me.

In terms of fingering technique, I tend to use 1-2-4 for about the first 9–10 frets, I will start using 1-2-3-4 around the 4th fret (but primarily sticking to 1-2-4), and then exclusively 1-2-3-4 (even with extensions) for almost everything from the 10th fret and up. I tend to fall back on 1-2-4 as my primary fingering because it's what I'm most familiar with on double bass, but also because I'm extremely averse to unnecessary tension and it's only until around the 7th fret where 1-2-3-4 starts to feel as comfortable as 1-2-4 does at the 1st fret. If for some reason I need to cover more than a whole step below the 4th fret I personally am much more likely to "pivot" as opposed to using 1-2-3-4, where the thumb stays anchored but the arm and hand move up or down a half step.

For scales, it totally is important to practice the normal universal fingerings (2-4-1-2-4-1-3-4 for major, 1-3-4-1-3-4-1-3 for natural minor, 1-3-4-1-3-4-2-3 for harmonic minor, and 1-3-4-1-4-1-3-4 for ascending melodic minor) that require no shifting, but there are also many advantages to practicing scales with fingerings that require more shifting like playing four notes on each string as opposed to 2 or 3 like the non-shifting scales (the universal fingering for a major scale being 1-3 (or 4)-SHIFT-3-4-1-3-SHIFT-3-4). The main advantage is that while your arm moves much more, you cover a much greater physical distance: if we start with 1 on the 3rd fret G on the E string, we end with 4 on the 10th fret on the A string, which gives you a "geographic" distance of 8 frets as opposed to 3 if you stay in position. Being able to use more frequent and smaller shifts allows you to gradually ascend or descend the fretboard as opposed to making big jumps between positions. I also think that it's important to practice scales and arpeggios that use open strings because a) sometimes you really need that open string to execute a line and b) you can use open strings to make smooth transitions between big shifts. If we play a 2-octave G major arpeggio, we can use the fingering 2-1-0-0-SHIFT-1-4-4, with the corresponding strings being E-A-D-G-D-D-G.

I guess in short, I tend to use a mixture of double bass and guitar fingerings depending on what feels or sounds the best for any given situation: sometimes playing across the strings and shifting very little is the best approach and sometimes shifting more and crossings strings less frequently is more desirable.

 

[SteveCS]

Thanks so much for the insight. Do you typically approach scales/position playing with the double bass technique then? Or do you do a hybrid approach of the double bass method plus 1 finger per fret 4 finger method?

It is very much a hybrid, perhaps more akin to 'cello. I tend to use a mix of 1-2-4 (Simandl) and 1-3-4 (Bille) double-bass fingering up to position II/III, then generally go to a 4-finger method. I will use extensions and pivots in any position, but I am quite fluid with blending it all together as the needs arise. As a fretless player I cannot stress enough the importance of hand-shape to control tone and intonation.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

How do you Define a Position for Electric Bass?

Stage left, next to the drummer.

I play one finger/per fret at the upper positions, and down the neck when I'm playing a melody. Other than that, I sometimes omit the ring or middle finger at the lower positions depending on what I'm playing.