How do you know what notes you should be playing for a song?

[JRA]

I'm just trying to figure out how you know what to play.

as you can tell by the responses, so far: no one else knows, either!

surely there is a science to it.

there is! you can get that with lessons! i'd recommend piano lessons first, then find a cat who can teach bass.

good luck!


also: "knowing what to play" is a life-long pursuit: and even the best of the best have difficulty now and then!

 

[aesopslyre]

You are falling into a very common music theory "trap" of using your brain, not your senses. Theory really only exists to describe musical sounds. First you need to train your ears to recognize the sounds. Then once you can hear it, the theory will begin to make sense to you.

An example is that the time signatures 3/4 and 6/8 both have the same number of beats (3 quarter notes, or 6 eighth notes, per measure). But you would be wrong to argue that a song in 3/4 is in 6/8, or that a song in 6/8 is in 3/4. Experienced musicians have trained their ears to hear the difference between 6/8 and 3/4 time. Even though they are "theoretically the same" they feel different.

It's the same with relative major/minor relationships like C major and A minor. Experienced musicians have trained their ears to hear the difference. You can argue that "Stairway to Heaven is in C major because there are no sharps or flats in the key signature" but you'd be wrong. If you forget about theory for a moment and just listen, you will hear that the song's tonal center or "home" is definitely not C major, but feels strongly like A minor.

Don't let a little bit of theory stop you from using your senses. Arguing that "Stairway" is in C major is like driving your car into a lake because you are too busy looking at your GPS.

I'm not arguing that it is in c major. It is in Aminor... but if someone called the tune in c major, you ought to know what they mean. You don't get it, and that's okay with me. My point is that you decided to not investigate a potentially valuable source of information, because you can't fathom why those charts were grouped under c major charts. And I suppose you didn't read the disclaimer below the chart discussing relative minors. And my question was , "how would you notate the tune in A minor" not " how would you hear the tune in A minor."A glance at the website in question reveals that it is tablature, which is a better reason to discard it. But notice that all tunes in the site are grouped under major key signatures and nomenclature, with no possibility of grouping tunes by key signature under a Minor designation. Likely a function of a desire to avoid redundancy in formulating the website tune index. Also interesting is how many folks voted that the song be included under "a major" which is clearly wrong. The way we know it is in A minor is the chord sequence. The key signature is in C, or a minor. The notation is identical for both c and a minor, which is what I was referring to, there is no way of distinguishing c key signature from a -, without examining the tune, and final tonal resolution. All in all, I will concede that the site you posted is not terribly useful, beyond the reason you cited.

 

[DuckSoup]

Trust your ears, not some random website. The very first song on the list ("Stairway to Heaven") is wrong (it's actually in the key of A minor), so I stopped reading at that point.

Hah it's funny you mention that. I was playing through some of those songs in C-Major, and about 4 songs in everything felt great. Then I get to one "Chris Tomlin - How great is our god" and I'm starting with a C#, then A#, F#, G# and I'm like *** this song is not a C-Major...Which I think is actually a D-Flat major song....Or maybe a B-Flat Major....

So yeah your right, but hey I was able to pick up on it!

 

[hrodbert696]

Thanks guys for all the feedback.

For the most part it sounds like I need to continue practicing my music theory, which isn't the most fun thing in the world, but will help make sense of all of this as I start to figure it out.

One thing I found here just a bit ago is a site that will tell you what keys a lot of popular songs are played in. I may try that out for a bit to learn about certain keys and how bass lines work with those keys.

Songs in key C Major @ Song Key Finder

It sounds like I may be on the right track...

Music theory can be a bit dry. I would advise splitting your practice time between technique and theory stuff, and just learning songs. Overload on technical matters and you'll probably get bored and burned out. But you'll find that as you get more familiar with theory, it becomes easier to pick up songs.

 

[DuckSoup]

@DuckSoup, if you really want to learn to play the bass, join a band. Learn theory in conjunction with playing with others. Have fun!

That's actually my goal. But I wanted to get the basics down first and see where I'm at in a year.

 

[Clark Dark]

First you should definitely play with others and put what you have learned to the test n a playing environment. It's good you're learning the circle of fifths (and don't forget the circle of fourths) but while you're attempting to sponge up all the nuances of scales, major-minor, fifths and fourths do this. Starting right now squeeze in some time learning the modes. You may have heard of them, and even I today wonder if the scales evolved from the modes or if it's vice-versa. But learning the modes will broaden your knowledge on how to play between the chords and also boost your theory a great deal. I believe you can find some modes charts on this forum if you use the search function.

 

[mambo4]

understand the rhythm of the style
understand the chords of the tune

all theory knowledge should be bent to those two goals.

 

[ezstep]

Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment.
Will Rogers

Practice. Figure out what sounds good and what you should never attempt again. Stick to it. Most of all, enjoy and have fun with music.

 

[fearceol]

I figured the scales, and notes on the finger-board were a good starting point.

They are....but as chords and chord tones are what the bassist plays 90% of the time...NOT scales.... IMO these ( chord tones) should be the next thing to work on.

 

[georgiagoodie]

Indeed, that IS the question, id-n-it?

 

[Wfrance3]

I will read all of this when I'm not at work because amazingly good stuff. One thing I want to add, just in case it's not here already, is the what to play rhythm-wise.
You want to play something (and not over-play) interesting that goes with the major or minor chord. That's the obvious part. Follow the drum beat and listen for clues that will lead you to good decisions for you bass part. if the kick drum is pretty fast and playing eight notes or better, then it's probably a good idea to pedal on something similar. If you're hearing a lot of cymbal work, and the kick drum is either absent, or playing just whole notes, then slow down and play some whole notes and keep the number of notes you play between chord changes very sparse. Playing the right notes is paramount, but also, you don't want to be geared up for kick boxing when everyone else is int synchronized swimming....

 

[Skerrvydog]

You're a drummer so you've got an advantage when it comes to the rhythm part. Try to draw some analogies to drums to help you fill in bass parts too, in terms of the way that you use accents and fills to signal changes in a song. You fill right before a change so that you help lead into the change, then land back on the one, right?
A big part of bass playing is learning how to signal changes too. A bass part could be just root root root until there's a time to signal a change, I which case you lead up to the next chord. Leading tones. Parts of scales that let the listener (and the band) know what's coming next.
Bass had that great ability to be both percussion and melody. Sometimes I like to think of bass as a set of drums, with only a certain number of notes available. Boundaries help from things getting too busy. Kinda like nobody wants a Drummer who just fills all the time.

 

[Mushroo]

I'm not arguing that it is in c major. It is in Aminor... but if someone called the tune in c major, you ought to know what they mean. You don't get it, and that's okay with me. My point is that you decided to not investigate a potentially valuable source of information, because you can't fathom why those charts were grouped under c major charts. And I suppose you didn't read the disclaimer below the chart discussing relative minors. And my question was , "how would you notate the tune in A minor" not " how would you hear the tune in A minor."A glance at the website in question reveals that it is tablature, which is a better reason to discard it. But notice that all tunes in the site are grouped under major key signatures and nomenclature, with no possibility of grouping tunes by key signature under a Minor designation. Likely a function of a desire to avoid redundancy in formulating the website tune index. Also interesting is how many folks voted that the song be included under "a major" which is clearly wrong. The way we know it is in A minor is the chord sequence. The key signature is in C, or a minor. The notation is identical for both c and a minor, which is what I was referring to, there is no way of distinguishing c key signature from a -, without examining the tune, and final tonal resolution. All in all, I will concede that the site you posted is not terribly useful, beyond the reason you cited.

I definitely see where you are coming from. From my own perspective as an educator, C major and A major are both "clearly wrong" answers, but A major seems "less wrong" to me, because at least the student is correctly identifying A as the tonic. (Also, "Stairway" makes prominent use of G# and F# in the opening measures, which might trick the student's ear into hearing shades of A Major. An understandable mistake.) But of course, "two wrongs don't make a right" and the correct, unambiguous answer is A minor.

I'm glad we are in agreement that www.songkeyfinder.com is a seriously flawed educational resource. It's like a website that claims to be an authority on fruit colors, but claims "bananas are purple." At the risk of repeating myself: trust your senses, not some random website!

 

[Love_Bass]

Pick your Heroes
Read Tabs to get a general idea
Play songs you like/ play with others
Continue scale practice (Pentatonic maj-min)
Make YouTube Videos
Have fun

"I play in a classic rock cover band, have 83 current YouTube videos , practice scales and found a woman desperate enough to date a bass player.."

Dont Quit....it gets way worse but the journey is so much fun..

 

[bass12]

understand the rhythm of the style
understand the chords of the tune

all theory knowledge should be bent to those two goals.

If you're not also looking at melody and key centre then you are missing out on a lot of information about a song.

 

[HolmeBass]

Ok, then how would you notate a tune in A minor, since you don't think it is in c major? Ever heard of a relative minor?

*Exactly* why the key signature and the key of a song are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

 

[monkeyfinger]

*Exactly* why the key signature and the key of a song are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

I don't really get that. Would you please explain the difference?

 

[pbass2]

Play notes sounding good or interesting to you over the chord progression being played. Try different rhythm patterns until you come up with something that you feel supports the song.
Music theory is what you use to analyze and label what you've already played. And good voice leading and counterpoint ideas.
It's good to be well schooled and to know lots of theory so you can understand in your own mind what you are playing, and can hear and dial up immediately what you want to play before you play it, and to communicate quickly and succinctly with other players who also have a good knowledge of theory. I highly recommend knowing lots of theory. But it's not totally necessary. Have fun!

You can learn more than one way. If you learn by ear like many of us, self-taught, and start understanding for example, harmony(i.e., why that one certain note sounds "right" at a given point in the song) you're inevitably learning theory. Would it be better to take classes in theory and learn to read notation etc. as well? Sure, all knowledge is good. Might speed the process up, but maybe not.

 

[HolmeBass]

I don't really get that. Would you please explain the difference?

The same key signature is used for both C major and A minor. The key of a song is more difficult to determine, and sometimes you actually have to rely on the melody to properly define the key. If you've ever run across a melody with accidentals in it compared to the key sig you will see how this can be the case.

They key signature is an affordance for making the transcription of the tune easy. I don't take it as anything more. What if a song is modal? What is the "key" of the song then? It sure won't be the key signature.

 

[aesopslyre]

*Exactly* why the key signature and the key of a song are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!

it would be more correct to say that the key signature can indicate either a major or minor tonal center. were we dealing with with A harmonic or melodic minor, the key signature would still be shared with c major. Accidentals would indicate modal differences with Aeoliian minor

I definitely see where you are coming from. From my own perspective as an educator, C major and A major are both "clearly wrong" answers, but A major seems "less wrong" to me, because at least the student is correctly identifying A as the tonic. (Also, "Stairway" makes prominent use of G# and F# in the opening measures, which might trick the student's ear into hearing shades of A Major. An understandable mistake.) But of course, "two wrongs don't make a right" and the correct, unambiguous answer is A minor.

I'm glad we are in agreement that www.songkeyfinder.com is a seriously flawed educational resource. It's like a website that claims to be an authority on fruit colors, but claims "bananas are purple." At the risk of repeating myself: trust your senses, not some random website!

A key signature for A# would be definitively wrong to notate "Stairway to heaven" where the key signature shared with c maj. would definitely be right.