How do you know what notes you should be playing for a song?

[dreamadream99]

Until this degenerated into a Stairway to Heaven key war, you were getting some very good advice. The recommendation to enroll in a college theory course is an excellent one.

Ask any professional, and the 2 things that most determine their note choice, are their decades of experience playing that style, and their knowledge of keys and chords (theory).

So study your theory, and don't stop playing and imitating what you hear.

 

[HolmeBass]

it would be more correct to say that the key signature can indicate either a major or minor tonal center. were we dealing with with A harmonic or melodic minor, the key signature would still be shared with c major. Accidentals would indicate modal differences with Aeoliian minor

A key signature for A# would be definitively wrong to notate "Stairway to heaven" where the key signature shared with c maj. would definitely be right.

It would be foolish, and lead to lots of accidentals, but if the correct accidentals were included I don't see how you could say it was "wrong". As long as the music tells you the right notes to play and when to play them, I'd say it is arguable that it is correct.

Not that I would not be angry with someone who transcribed "Stairway to Heaven" that way, just as an intellectual exercise I would not say it was "wrong", but perhaps "silly" and "annoying" and "pointless".

 

[Chad T]

I know nowhere near the amount of theory stuff as a lot of these guys. But I listen by ear to find the main chords and changes. Once you have that, you can find/fit other notes around that. For example, before I started thinking about this, I'd start learning a song and get overwhelmed with just a bunch of notes. But then I realized the chord tone and how the other notes just fit in between. Usually, the in-between notes are from the scale, but certainly not always. For example, chromatics can sound decent at times and that can't really be explained in terms of scales. It just sounds good in some places.

 

[aesopslyre]

It would be foolish, and lead to lots of accidentals, but if the correct accidentals were included I don't see how you could say it was "wrong". As long as the music tells you the right notes to play and when to play them, I'd say it is arguable that it is correct.

Not that I would not be angry with someone who transcribed "Stairway to Heaven" that way, just as an intellectual exercise I would not say it was "wrong", but perhaps "silly" and "annoying" and "pointless".

In other words, a mistake that would lead to major corrections on the part of the arranger, and strain the reading capabilities of the performer. But by your lights, not "wrong". Interesting. I disagree, as a key signature with no sharps or flats elegantly conveys "A minor"... or c major. Whereas 3### don't indicate A minor. I'm sure you would get a poor mark in arranging class if you notated the chart with A# key sig , and used accidentals and minor chord symbols to portray the key, as opposed to using the key sig shared by its relative major.

 

[Mushroo]

I don't really get that. Would you please explain the difference?

Keys are aural concepts that exist only as sound waves, and key signatures are notational concepts that exist only on the written page.

Technically, you can notate any song using any key signature. For example, hypothetically speaking, you could notate "Stairway to Heaven" using an A Major key signature (3 sharps) and use lots and lots of accidentals. A less crazy example is that some modern compositions are so 12-tone and chromatic, it is often easiest to just use a key signature of no sharps or flats, not because the song is in the key of C (or A minor) but rather for clarity of notation and ease of reading. A famous example is John Coltrane's "Giant Steps" which modulates through three different keys (Eb, B, and G) and is notated in the Real Book with a key signature of no sharps or flats.

However, the vast majority of the popular music we know and love, it is most logical and convenient to match up the aural key with the corresponding notational key signature.

 

[HolmeBass]

In other words, a mistake that would lead to major corrections on the part of the arranger, and strain the reading capabilities of the performer. But by your lights, not "wrong". Interesting. I disagree, as a key signature with no sharps or flats elegantly conveys "A minor"... or c major. Whereas 3### don't indicate A minor. I'm sure you would get a poor mark in arranging class if you notated the chart with A# key sig , and used accidentals and minor chord symbols to portray the key, as opposed to using the key sig shared by its relative major.

Yes, you probably would get poor marks in "arranging class" or some similar class, where more than the utter factual correctness of your performance would be judged. In class the instructor can and will grade you on style and any other subjective criteria they feel is important. It doesn't change the factual matter of what I said - *I* would not say someone transcribed some music incorrectly if they merely picked a terrible key signature and filler their transcription with accidentals. Inefficient? Yes. Annoying? Perhaps. That's just how I see it. You can have a different opinion. I am ok with that. You can think A minor == C major, which I also disagree with. But whatever. Let's let this thread return to its stated purpose: how to know what notes one should play for a given song?

 

[DuckSoup]

So one last question since you guys have been so helpful.

I've been playing songs that are in the C-Major scale, just to get a feel for how some of those songs were played.

I was doing Blink 182, foo fighters, 3 doors down

All doing this while playing along the C-Major scale just at a basic level to get a feel for the song.
All felt really good and I was able to play along with just using the C-Major scale. Then I come across this guy...

Chris Tomlin - How Great is our God.
How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin @ Song Key Finder


The first site says it's in the key of C-Major....Buuuut as I'm playing along, I'm playing a C#...Then an A#...Then F#....Then up to a G#...And I'm like....what the crap this doesn't feel like a C-Major song.

So after doing some research on the notes I was playing, it feels more like this song was written in D-Flat Major. Is that true? If so then that answers a huge question as far as "What to play" Because it would seem like focusing on the key of a song helps guide the notes you are supposed to play by using the scale. Does that sound right?

 

[FenderB]

Good question. Hang on I'll get there.......

If we are talking about the accompaniment bass line, not the tune, we play notes of the harmonizing chord that the song writer has placed in the song. Why? If the melody line (treble clef) and the harmony line (bass clef) share like notes we get harmony, i.e. the two lines sound good with each other. We count on the song writer to place the harmonizing chord where needed and then we play notes of that chord. In doing that we harmonize with the melody and we sound good with what is happening in the song.

So --- we need to know what chords are active at this moment in the song and play some of their notes to the beat (rhythm) of the song. If our ears are good enough we can rely upon them to tell us what chord is active. My ears are tin, so I rely upon fake chord sheet music. Google can call up fake chord sheet music on just about everything you will need. Once you know the active chord play some of it's notes. Yes I know ---- which ones is the question.

Roots work. After you have found the root a R-5 usually works. Root on the 1st beat and 5 on the 3rd beat. Where is the 5 from the root? Up a string and over two frets, or down a string same fret. Yep, that is where 5ths live. After that I normally bring in a octave 8. Where is the 8 from the root? Up two strings and over two frets, right over the 5. So R-5-8-5 is a generic pattern that will keep you in the game. Roots alone work for Praise music, Roots and fives work for Country and that R-5-8-5 kinda fits with the other stuff.

Go to the General Instruction section and look for post # 14 in the getting started sticky. How to get started? It will give you the rest of the story.

Yes there is a structure to follow. Random notes usually result in noise.

Good luck

This is very helpful, thanks.

 

[bassdude51]

Jimmy Vaughan's advice is excellent................"roll and I'll just feel something." As said at the beginning of this song. That's how ya choose your bass line.

 

[tripp2k]

Thread delivers. I play entirely by ear and repetition and need to learn theory. It's gotten me far enough to regurgitate covers in a band but it'd be nice to know what the heck I'm doing.

 

[xnewyorka]

When a song plays, in my mind I know what I want the bass to sound like, but how do you know what notes you should be playing in a song?

Do you have a smartphone? If so, I highly recommend downloading the app called PitchLab Lite. It is AWESOME for this job and many other things. You can use it to tune your instrument. It has several tuner modes, including strobe and needle. You can play notes or chords on any instrument and it tells you what chord it is. You can sing into it and it shows you exactly what notes you are singing graphically.

When I want to learn a song, I just launch the app. I hear a note in the song, pause it, sing that same note, and the app tells me what note it is. So all you have to do is be able to hear the note and sing it, and you can know what note it is.
Then of course you have to find that note on the instrument. Get a chart and spend some time mastering that - the quicker you can identify ALL the notes on your fretboard, the better off you'll be. Certainly at least you should memorize every fret on every string up to the 15th fret. Scott's bass lessons has a great exercise using the "circle of fifths" for doing that. For example, start on low E, and find/play every E on every string. Then go up a fifth to B and do the same. Then up a fifth to F#, etc. Repeat until you get back to E.

 

[Chad T]

All felt really good and I was able to play along with just using the C-Major scale. Then I come across this guy...

Chris Tomlin - How Great is our God.
How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin @ Song Key Finder


The first site says it's in the key of C-Major....Buuuut as I'm playing along, I'm playing a C#...Then an A#...Then F#....Then up to a G#...And I'm like....what the crap this doesn't feel like a C-Major song.

So after doing some research on the notes I was playing, it feels more like this song was written in D-Flat Major. Is that true? If so then that answers a huge question as far as "What to play" Because it would seem like focusing on the key of a song helps guide the notes you are supposed to play by using the scale. Does that sound right?

Not sure I've heard that version before. The version we reference from at church starts with an acoustic guitar and it is indeed in the key of C.

 

[bassbully]

Good question. Hang on I'll get there.......

If we are talking about the accompaniment bass line, not the tune, we play notes of the harmonizing chord that the song writer has placed in the song. Why? If the melody line (treble clef) and the harmony line (bass clef) share like notes we get harmony, i.e. the two lines sound good with each other. We count on the song writer to place the harmonizing chord where needed and then we play notes of that chord. In doing that we harmonize with the melody and we sound good with what is happening in the song.

So --- we need to know what chords are active at this moment in the song and play some of their notes to the beat (rhythm) of the song. If our ears are good enough we can rely upon them to tell us what chord is active. My ears are tin, so I rely upon fake chord sheet music. Google can call up fake chord sheet music on just about everything you will need. Once you know the active chord play some of it's notes. Yes I know ---- which ones is the question.

Roots work. After you have found the root a R-5 usually works. Root on the 1st beat and 5 on the 3rd beat. Where is the 5 from the root? Up a string and over two frets, or down a string same fret. Yep, that is where 5ths live. After that I normally bring in a octave 8. Where is the 8 from the root? Up two strings and over two frets, right over the 5. So R-5-8-5 is a generic pattern that will keep you in the game. Roots alone work for Praise music, Roots and fives work for Country and that R-5-8-5 kinda fits with the other stuff.

Go to the General Instruction section and look for post # 14 in the getting started sticky. How to get started? It will give you the rest of the story.

Yes there is a structure to follow. Random notes usually result in noise.

Good luck

^ Best solid advice you will find anywhere on getting started. MalcolmAmos is a master of helping people to understand simple bass playing such as getting in the box and moving note to note. Fishing for the right note or guessing rarely works. Find the key that the song is in then learn what the cords are as well as the progression.

 

[Skerrvydog]

So one last question since you guys have been so helpful.

I've been playing songs that are in the C-Major scale, just to get a feel for how some of those songs were played.

I was doing Blink 182, foo fighters, 3 doors down

All doing this while playing along the C-Major scale just at a basic level to get a feel for the song.
All felt really good and I was able to play along with just using the C-Major scale. Then I come across this guy...

Chris Tomlin - How Great is our God.
How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin @ Song Key Finder


The first site says it's in the key of C-Major....Buuuut as I'm playing along, I'm playing a C#...Then an A#...Then F#....Then up to a G#...And I'm like....what the crap this doesn't feel like a C-Major song.

So after doing some research on the notes I was playing, it feels more like this song was written in D-Flat Major. Is that true? If so then that answers a huge question as far as "What to play" Because it would seem like focusing on the key of a song helps guide the notes you are supposed to play by using the scale. Does that sound right?

Good enough ear to tell that the notes your playing to match the recording don't match the notated tab.
You get 100 bonus points!
That clip is a great example of how to really frustrate an amateur musician.
UNLESS there is a disclaimer with that clip that the guitar fingerings shown (which may be different than the actual sounding chords ) are to be played with a CAPO on the first fret, which is the actual case here.
So yes, as a bass player, you should be able to transpose as needed, just like in this example.
When the singer says "hey that's a little low for me to sing that part, can we move the song up a half step?" The guitar player puts on a Capo, but you have to know how to accommodate.

 

[Chad T]

Good enough ear to tell that the notes your playing to match the recording don't match the notated tab.
You get 100 bonus points!
That clip is a great example of how to really frustrate an amateur musician.
UNLESS there is a disclaimer with that clip that the guitar fingerings shown (which may be different than the actual sounding chords ) are to be played with a CAPO on the first fret, which is the actual case here.
So yes, as a bass player, you should be able to transpose as needed, just like in this example.
When the singer says "hey that's a little low for me to sing that part, can we move the song up a half step?" The guitar player puts on a Capo, but you have to know how to accommodate.

As a bass player, I hate capos. haha. But on guitar, they certainly have their place as long as not abused and a crutch to avoid learning how to play certain chords. One guy I know is a good songwriter and has a good voice, but he still can't play barre chords, for crying out loud. And he's been playing probably 20 years.

 

[aesopslyre]

So one last question since you guys have been so helpful.

I've been playing songs that are in the C-Major scale, just to get a feel for how some of those songs were played.

I was doing Blink 182, foo fighters, 3 doors down

All doing this while playing along the C-Major scale just at a basic level to get a feel for the song.
All felt really good and I was able to play along with just using the C-Major scale. Then I come across this guy...

Chris Tomlin - How Great is our God.
How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin @ Song Key Finder


The first site says it's in the key of C-Major....Buuuut as I'm playing along, I'm playing a C#...Then an A#...Then F#....Then up to a G#...And I'm like....what the crap this doesn't feel like a C-Major song.

So after doing some research on the notes I was playing, it feels more like this song was written in D-Flat Major. Is that true? If so then that answers a huge question as far as "What to play" Because it would seem like focusing on the key of a song helps guide the notes you are supposed to play by using the scale. Does that sound right?

So one last question since you guys have been so helpful.

I've been playing songs that are in the C-Major scale, just to get a feel for how some of those songs were played.

I was doing Blink 182, foo fighters, 3 doors down

All doing this while playing along the C-Major scale just at a basic level to get a feel for the song.
All felt really good and I was able to play along with just using the C-Major scale. Then I come across this guy...

Chris Tomlin - How Great is our God.
How Great Is Our God by Chris Tomlin @ Song Key Finder


The first site says it's in the key of C-Major....Buuuut as I'm playing along, I'm playing a C#...Then an A#...Then F#....Then up to a G#...And I'm like....what the crap this doesn't feel like a C-Major song.

So after doing some research on the notes I was playing, it feels more like this song was written in D-Flat Major. Is that true? If so then that answers a huge question as far as "What to play" Because it would seem like focusing on the key of a song helps guide the notes you are supposed to play by using the scale. Does that sound right?

the tune is definitely sounding in D flat... or C# . And it is using a I- VI- IV chord progression throughout , with the interpolation of V after IV chord in the chorus. You can definitely play the associated modes of the DFlat major scale over the chord functions.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

I didn't read all the responses, but I would say learn to play chord tones as these make up a large part of what bassists do. I practice this by playing something like the chord progression to "Autumn Leaves" (Cmin7, Fdom7, Bbmaj7, Ebmaj7, Amin7b5, D7, Gmin7, Gdom7) and first I play each chord in time as quarter notes (4/4) in sequence (Root, 3rd, 5th, 7th) and as I continue I try to switch them up and play root, 7th, 5th, 3rd and I play each combination of those chord tones (root, 5th, 7th 3rd etc)and try to speak them out loud as you do so. This is an excellent way to learn the shapes of different chord voicings, learn what chord tone is the 3rd or root or whatever and to learn to play along to anything assuming you know the chords. There is a good walkthrough of this exact exercise on Scott's Bass Lessons youtube channel

 

[mrcbass]

If you're playing scales you already know the chord tones.

You basic triad (chord) consist of the first, third and fifth notes of a scale. In a C major scale, your triad would be C, E and G. Roots (the first note of a key) and fights are a bass players home. Of course it de[pends on a lot of things, but probably 80% of pop/country/blues/latin songs can be supported by just playing roots and fifths. Think of the tuba in a polka to hear what a root/fifth fell sounds like. There are a lot of songs where it is wrong to play anything but roots and fifths.

So understand your root/fifth structure for all chords and you can run basic bass lines or a lot of songs. there's probably a good number of bass players that never get much beyond the root/fifth approach

After you are comfortable with that add the thirds. These are the next most common chord tones used by the bass. This will be different for major and minor keys. Example C Major: C E G. C Minor C Eb G. Play with those for a while.

The next chord tone you'll want to experiment with is sevenths. It is the last "normal" chord tone. This one is a little mor complicated because there are several variations of which 7th to use. You're probably a ways form this, so I'm not going to try go into this in any detail. But if you can imagine a boogie-woogie bass line, they are playing a 1,3,5,b7 1(octave) 5,3,1). there are plenty of resources on the internet about 7th chords

From there it can get pretty crazy especially if you get into jazz - 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, 4ths 2nds....

I know theory can be dry (3 years of it in HS and college), but the sooner you can connect the theory to the sounds, it'll get fun. If you get deep enough, you'll learn why the V-I (fifth chord to root chord) progression sounds so good and is so popular. That when lights will start turning on and it'll become fun.

Running scales and arpeggios can be very boring and seem pointless. Once you can connect them to a useful task, it starts making sense. Break up your practice so that you do more than run scales. Maybe one day you run your scales for C, F and G Major. (the I, IV and V in a song keyed in C major). Then work out the root fifth tones for those same scales. I bet you won't get very far before you start to recognize a thousand songs. Then add the thirds. then do the same thing for all keys. This might make learning a little more fun.

After you get comfortable with roots, thirds and fifths then you're ready to start playing with more complex bass lines, adding passing tones (notes that are not in the chord, but lead the listener to the next chord - not always scale notes). This get pretty advanced, so again just giving you a bit of a map.

And definitely don't be afraid to just explore. "What happens if I go 'here' between the fifth and the root? Hmmm that didn't sound so good. What about here? That's better." You discover a lot of things this way.

I know you're not really ready for all this yet but something to file away for future use:There is a bit of science to all of this, but music is an "art". Using science (theory) to support the art helps us to anticipate what will sound good. There are times when something that doesn't fit the theory feels right. It might even not sound so good (dissonance) which is used to create tension so that we can be relieved by the resolution.

Anyway getting long winded. Be patient and keep at it. You'll get there!

 

[jwilson67]

Big ears, interval recognition, fret board knowledge. Those basic three and you can play songs you hear. Also, just hours and hours of doing it over and over.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm just trying to figure out how you know what to play. If a song plays, I want to be able to say "Ah yeah let's start with a C, then down to a X, then on to an X...etc" Does that make sense? I've been playing drums for over 20 years, and when I hear a song, I can figure out pretty quickly what kind of beat to lay down. I'm trying to figure out how to do that for the bass.

By practicing and gaining knowledge of theory and familiarity with the instrument you develop the ability to intuitively anticipate the notes you will play based upon what you hear and see. Theory gives you a framework of what is appropriate based upon the chord and key, and your ear and muscle memory allows you to choose/place the notes based upon your expectations of how they will sound in the context of the harmonic structure you are playing over.

When I am improvising I shift between drawing on theory and playing by ear. How much I draw on theory versus my ear depends on how well I know the song, I.E., if my ear gets lost, I go back to the page and use theory until I find my place again.

To a large degree what I do is essentially formulaic in that I know basic chord shapes, and generally think of those chord shapes instead of notes. I do the same thing with scales and modes.

I learn songs by slowing them down so I can think about note options/choices. This allows me to develop and practice ideas which I will later be able to play at tempo with muscle memory rather than thinking about the note names.

I never really developed/learned a system for playing by numbers (I.E. memorize the chord progression by numbers). Mostly, I play pop music by ear and jazz by reading notes and chord symbols off a lead sheet.