How do you think about music?

[mikewalker]

In the moment? Do not think, DO

Musicology is all well and good as a stand-alone intellectual exercise, but in my book 'thinking about music' is akin to 'dancing about architecture'...

 

[MVE]

In the moment? Do not think, DO

Musicology is all well and good as a stand-alone intellectual exercise, but in my book 'thinking about music' is akin to 'dancing about architecture'...

Im sorry but playing the wrong chord is playing a different song. It takes memorization to learn the chords of a song and then thought to play them correctly. I appreciate your sentiment, but it’s simply not possible to play a complicated piece of music in an ensemble of other musicians without some pretty complex thinking going on.

 

[JimmyM]

In the moment? Do not think, DO

Musicology is all well and good as a stand-alone intellectual exercise, but in my book 'thinking about music' is akin to 'dancing about architecture'...

Takes a good amount of thinking to get to that point where you can do it without thinking. Cart before the horse.

 

[LBS-bass]

Im sorry but playing the wrong chord is playing a different song. It takes memorization to learn the chords of a song and then thought to play them correctly. I appreciate your sentiment, but it’s simply not possible to play a complicated piece of music in an ensemble of other musicians without some pretty complex thinking going on.

Well, I'd say that depends. When I play, I am not thinking about what chords or intervals I am hearing. My fingers will go to the major or minor third, for example, because my head knows the sound of what's coming up and my fingers know where to go to achieve that sound. I have very little theory training, but I have a lot of experience playing songs, so my hands know what to do (most of the time) as I navigate through changes, as long as I'm familiar with the music I'm playing to the degree necessary to know what sounds are coming up next. I said sounds because if I said "chords" you'd think I'm thinking Am7 or something, but I never even think about chord names unless I'm looking at charts.

I think that's not a matter of knowing theory or having feel. It's a matter of playing a lot.

 

[MVE]

Well, I'd say that depends. When I play, I am not thinking about what chords or intervals I am hearing. My fingers will go to the major or minor third, for example, because my head knows the sound of what's coming up and my fingers know where to go to achieve that sound. I have very little theory training, but I have a lot of experience playing songs, so my hands know what to do (most of the time) as I navigate through changes, as long as I'm familiar with the music I'm playing to the degree necessary to know what sounds are coming up next. I said sounds because if I said "chords" you'd think I'm thinking Am7 or something, but I never even think about chord names unless I'm looking at charts.

I think that's not a matter of knowing theory or having feel. It's a matter of playing a lot.

Well some people are truly gifted with their ears and ability to translate that very directly to physically manipulating an instrument. Its well known that Stevie Wonder could do this from the time he was a young child.
Most of us aren’t so lucky and we need to translate our musical ideas through a more abstract methodology in order to organize those ideas into our memory or to transfer them to an instrument physically.
If you are one of those people able to play complex patterns of chord changes strictly by remembering the sounds from a few listens, then Wow, that’s really awesome.

 

[Nev375]

Do you walk faster using your right or left leg?

 

[LBS-bass]

Well some people are truly gifted with their ears and ability to translate that very directly to physically manipulating an instrument. Its well known that Stevie Wonder could do this from the time he was a young child.
Most of us aren’t so lucky and we need to translate our musical ideas through a more abstract methodology in order to organize those ideas into our memory or to transfer them to an instrument physically.
If you are one of those people able to play complex patterns of chord changes strictly by remembering the sounds from a few listens, then Wow, that’s really awesome.

I don't see it that way. I was raised from an early age around people who could sing and harmonize and I personally believe that those experiences taught me a lot and trained my ear when I was pretty young. I think you can do this too. I truly think anyone can. I'm not special, but maybe lucky.

 

[JimmyM]

I don't see it that way. I was raised from an early age around people who could sing and harmonize and I personally believe that those experiences taught me a lot and trained my ear when I was pretty young. I think you can do this too. I truly think anyone can. I'm not special, but maybe lucky.

I think MVE is saying that you don't learn songs by osmosis. I was never a fantastic singer (slightly above average tonally but good at harmonies is a better way to put it) but I have a great ear, too. Still, I've been sitting here practicing new jazz songs for my band reading Real Book charts and listening to recordings because I can't read minds. Once I play them a few times, I'm good, but I still have to get the chord changes in my mind AND listen for the tricky little nuances our guitarist and drummer bring to the music just to screw with me And then I can turn my mind off and think of big fluffy clouds and little candies.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think MVE is saying that you don't learn songs by osmosis. I was never a fantastic singer (slightly above average tonally but good at harmonies is a better way to put it) but I have a great ear, too. Still, I've been sitting here practicing new jazz songs for my band reading Real Book charts and listening to recordings because I can't read minds. Once I play them a few times, I'm good, but I still have to get the chord changes in my mind AND listen for the tricky little nuances our guitarist and drummer bring to the music just to screw with me And then I can turn my mind off and think of big fluffy clouds and little candies.

No, you don't learn by osmosis. You have to have some familiarity with the song in order to pull this off, you can't just play something you've never heard before. Sorry if it seemed that is what I was implying. What I meant to say is that you can hear a chord in your head - and anticipate that chord - if you are familiar with the music, and place your fingers in the right place to play that chord without thinking about what the chord is.

Being familiar with the music in this instance doesn't mean you've played it before or seen a chord chart or sheet music. Although that can be a part of the learning process too. But for what I'm saying, it means that you've heard it often enough that you can hear it in your head and know what's coming next.

 

[marqueemoon]

I had 14 years of violin before picking up a bass or starting to play guitar in any kind of serious way. I kind of made a deliberate decision to stop “studying” music at that point as I was burned out.

Having all that background and ear training didn’t hurt, but I am a feel player for sure.

 

[Nephilymbass]

Hey everybody,
I'm curious to see how many people are theory nuts vs how many people don't do theory and how many people fall somewhere in between.

I'm studying music in college, so studying theory is a big part of that. I think pretty technically most of the time so improvisation is rarely a guessing game, but I've been using theory long enough that I don't have to think about every decision. Usually I can hear what I want to play before I play it, so I just let it flow.

I will say though that sometimes I can get really thrown off by non-diatonic music. In those cases I basically just think of the changes as being key changes.

Did you wrestle or play football in high school? I know that may seem like an odd question. But I’ll explain. For me music theory is something I learned playing trumpet and bass in junior high, high school, and college. I don’t claim to be an expert but what I do know has been beat into me so much that I don’t even think about it anymore. Ive played in bands since my teens and theory isn’t something I think about much aside from talking about music on the internet or writing down an idea if I don’t have the means to record right then and there. Its more of an improvising thing when we write music. Basically what I’m getting at is I don’t like to think about theory while I’m playing but I do respect theory. When I wrestled and played football in high school we practiced things until is was built into our muscle memory. You didn’t think about something before you did it, you just reacted. That’s exactly how i am with music theory.

I’m not a big fan of music that’s overly thought out. For example if you practice scales all day and then write a song it can end up sounding like you’re practicing scales during the song. Which I don’t personally care for at all. I’d much rather improvise and play music that has melody instead of scales.

 

[CallMeAl]

I’ve always had a good sense of time, and can feel out rhythms quite easily.

Pitch has always been harder for me. Studying theory mathematically- Nashville numbers, fret and key board patterns, analyzing scales and progressions, etc- has strengthened my understanding, which in turn has strengthened my ear.

 

[hrodbert696]

I like the way Victor Wooten talks about music as a language. You learn to talk as a kid without learning the rules of grammar first. You just imitate how others talk and use the sounds that get the effect you want. As you mature, learning the grammatical rules of your mother tongue helps you talk in a more sophisticated and articulate fashion, but you don't have to think through how the objects of prepositions work to speak. When learning a foreign language, though, it really does help to sit down and learn the grammatical rules from the get go.

Theory is the grammar of music.

 

[Garret Wheeler]

Did you wrestle or play football in high school? I know that may seem like an odd question. But I’ll explain. For me music theory is something I learned playing trumpet and bass in junior high, high school, and college. I don’t claim to be an expert but what I do know has been beat into me so much that I don’t even think about it anymore. Ive played in bands since my teens and theory isn’t something I think about much aside from talking about music on the internet or writing down an idea if I don’t have the means to record right then and there. Its more of an improvising thing when we write music. Basically what I’m getting at is I don’t like to think about theory while I’m playing but I do respect theory. When I wrestled and played football in high school we practiced things until is was built into our muscle memory. You didn’t think about something before you did it, you just reacted. That’s exactly how i am with music theory.

I’m not a big fan of music that’s overly thought out. For example if you practice scales all day and then write a song it can end up sounding like you’re practicing scales during the song. Which I don’t personally care for at all. I’d much rather improvise and play music that has melody instead of scales.

I'd say I do basically the same thing. I don't have to think too much, I can usually just react to what I'm hearing without thinking. You worded it better than I did, but I practice until it all just comes out naturally.

 

[Garret Wheeler]

STOP - Please STOP, presenting the concept or notion that a player’s “feel” is somehow in opposition to their knowledge.

You can have both.

That's not really what I was trying to say. The fourth option was supposed to mean that theory and feel work hand in hand. In fact, that's what I was trying to say when I was describing my playing style. IMO they go together!

 

[MVE]

No, you don't learn by osmosis. You have to have some familiarity with the song in order to pull this off, you can't just play something you've never heard before. Sorry if it seemed that is what I was implying. What I meant to say is that you can hear a chord in your head - and anticipate that chord - if you are familiar with the music, and place your fingers in the right place to play that chord without thinking about what the chord is.

Being familiar with the music in this instance doesn't mean you've played it before or seen a chord chart or sheet music. Although that can be a part of the learning process too. But for what I'm saying, it means that you've heard it often enough that you can hear it in your head and know what's coming next.

But take a relatively complicated song like Cherokee for instance. It has an A part, a slightly different A part (we’ll call A’ ) and a B part. It goes A,A’,B,A.
So, if you just played the B part, you now gotta play A,A,A’ then a B. If you just played the A part it might be A’ or another A, before a B. But if you just played A’, then it’s definitely B.
Now, if you’re playing with some soloists that might not know the song too well that might just be improvising all over the place, it can get all lost pretty quick, if you’re not really thinking about it and paying attention to where you are. (Am I on the A part or the A’ part? Is it time for the B part???? Etc) As bass players, we’re expected to know exactly where we are and outline the chords of the song. Play the wrong note, and you’re playing a different song.
If y’all can do all that strictly by feel without “thinking”... well that’s pretty impressive.
Me, I need to write it down and memorize the progression and still stay pretty darn focused to keep from getting lost, even when just playing along to a recording like this one.

 

[fdeck]

I voted "some theory." I didn't study music formally beyond high school, and we didn't learn much theory beyond scales and chord names. But I've played jazz for 40 years, and have played in bands with both degreed and non-degreed musicians.

I can solo over tunes, if I can internalize them and form a mental map of the harmony before my solo begins, either because: 1) The harmonies are easy / traditional; or 2) I've played the tune a lot. If harmonies start to get more complex / modern, then I can still play bass lines, but struggle on soloing.

I have a few fallbacks that help me out. Sometimes I switch to soloing directly over the melody. On upright bass I can make things easier by switching to arco and playing fewer notes. So I have some survival tricks up my sleeve, but at the same time, the better players can interpret those same harmonies effortlessly, so it seems. And I can hold my own in a lot of situations thanks to being able to sight-read fluently.

One thing I've noticed is that among the jazz musicians, the only people who are doing any amount of original composing or arranging, have music degrees.