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How does the general public feel about...

#41
I don't think that a standardized test needs to be "standard".
As in the exact same questions in the exact same order. Something that a teacher could just teach the answers.

In today's technological age,
I don't see any reason that a test couldn't be individually generated with random questions designed to demonstrate a students ability to solve a problem.

A math test doesn't have to be " 2+2= ? ",
it could easily be that question on one student's test and be "5+3= ?" on anothers.

A test that gauges a students ability to do basic math and not just the ability to regurgitate answers.

I think that it is sad that teachers here seem to be saying that their fellow teachers would just do the bare minimum of teaching to their students and just "teach the test".

If there are really those teachers out there that believe that this would be an acceptable way of doing their jobs,
maybe they should be weeded out.
 
#43
With the student base being so uniquely different from class to class and year to year I don't see how that method could afford a real view of the teachers affect on their class. Add to that the over population of classes making for a much tougher teaching/learning environment, I feel for teachers, I really do.
Productivity based ( or in this case, result based ) pay scales are a slippery slope as was mentioned. I managed a auto service shop for a major company ( Think Three Stooges with $$ for eyes and you're in the ballpark ) who had just such a scheme in place. It was a disaster to say the least. I left that job ( it was a second job for me anyway ) after 1 month and went to another shop that had the same thing in place with one huge difference, if a job came back, the mechanic fixed it for free and it took priority over any other job they had lined up. THAT made them work smart and honest. I see no way of something like that being applicable for teachers, however.
 
#46
aborgman said:
I'm of the opinion that it is almost impossible to objectively measure the quality of teaching.
Click to expand...

certainly true if "teaching to the test" is occurring, but like someone else mentioned, there is a certain level of aptitude expected for each subject and grade level. i think testing is a fair assessment method in most cases.

I expect my 10th grader to be average or better in Geometry.
If he's failing, i consider the student (and his willingness to work at it), teacher (ability to explain clearly and give good examples), and the curriculum (enough examples given) when trying to figure out what can be done to correct the situation.

Same with other subjects.

The internet is a great example of the failings in grammar and spelling. I'm not saying who is to blame, but I'll bet testing would bring it to light over the course of teaching/learning it.
 
#47
Jim Nazium said:
Maybe taxpayers would be more willing to provide more funding to the schools if they thought there was some accountability?
Click to expand...

Maybe, but not likely. Most of the complaints come from people just not wanting to pay taxes. In most communities in Ohio the school part of the property tax is by far the largest. Also, in a lot of communities the actual number of households that have children in the school system is below 30%. Most people therefore see the school system as an expense that does not impact their lives directly. Its very difficult to get an increase in those situations, and they very happily listen to all kinds of comments about teacher unions and perceived quality of education as a reason for declining additional taxes.
 
#52
aborgman said:
You can test for student aptitude.

That doesn't test "teaching" though - it tests student "learning"... and they aren't the same thing.
Click to expand...

Is not the learning, as least hopefully, the result of the teaching?

how do you test the teaching? or is that the same question we're all discussing?

I'm a little confused. maybe you can clarify for me?
I'm admittedly in my post-lunch fog.
 
#53
A very interesting thread. As a science teacher in England for 20 years, I am smiling to myself at many of the posts here. However, rather than muddy the waters further with a UK spin on things, I shall continue to spectate.

Carry on :)
 
#54
Jim Nazium said:
Maybe taxpayers would be more willing to provide more funding to the schools if they thought there was some accountability?
Click to expand...

That was one of the premises behind No Child Left Behind, except the parents, and students were left out of the accountability equation. Instead of bringing them to the table as part of the child's education, it instead empowered them even farther with things like schools of choice, districts of choice, and the mandate that only a parent can approve things like retention, or in some cases 'F's' if they aren't reported properly. In my opinion, a child's education is is a threeway partnership between the child, the parent, and the teacher (and the district/state by proxy). As a child gets older the responsibility shifts more upon the child being accountable for their education. But there are a lot of things in place that block this.
 
#55
It's a bad idea all the way around. This isn't something most teachers are pushing for or support, IME. (30 year teacher in both public and private, young and adult) Reminds me of the whole charter school fad. Lots of charter schools for people to spend their money on, but rarely any gain in any measurable academic scores, over their public or parochial counterparts.
 
#56
skychief said:
...Evaluating a teacher based on his/her students' test scores is ludicrous...

Its a feeble attempt at standardizing the evaluation process. Location, demographics, climate, medications, diet and many other factors come into play when it comes to how well a student performs on a test.
Click to expand...

You can add quality/lack of of bedding/sleep, dental care, vision (eye care) , health insurance, comfort of clothing, home study furniture and supplies or the lack thereof.

The education level of the parents is pretty much the gold standard for how well the children perform in class.

A teacher controls none of the above.

Some teachers can overcome most of the above through shear force of will, creativity and personality.

As in any field, top performers are rare and cannot teach what they do to others.
 
#57
nortonrider said:
I don't think that a standardized test needs to be "standard".
As in the exact same questions in the exact same order. Something that a teacher could just teach the answers.

In today's technological age,
I don't see any reason that a test couldn't be individually generated with random questions designed to demonstrate a students ability to solve a problem.

A math test doesn't have to be " 2+2= ? ",
it could easily be that question on one student's test and be "5+3= ?" on anothers.

A test that gauges a students ability to do basic math and not just the ability to regurgitate answers.
Click to expand...

The GRE works on a similar principle, and its validity is still a source of controversy.
 
#58
MakiSupaStar said:
That was one of the premises behind No Child Left Behind, except the parents, and students were left out of the accountability equation. Instead of bringing them to the table as part of the child's education, it instead empowered them even farther with things like schools of choice, districts of choice, and the mandate that only a parent can approve things like retention, or in some cases 'F's' if they aren't reported properly. In my opinion, a child's education is is a threeway partnership between the child, the parent, and the teacher (and the district/state by proxy). As a child gets older the responsibility shifts more upon the child being accountable for their education. But there are a lot of things in place that block this.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree. "Nickle-B" was harsh on the education process imo. As a father, going to IEP meetings for my son became an event, as each new school was always on the defensive at first. From a professional level it brought organizations like C.A.R.F. about, which looks great on paper, but was a royal cluster F of a problem to deal with as it was largely "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" inspections. Giving IEPs was like going to war. I had several parents come to them with organizations like Families First ( again, looks great on paper . . . ) in tow along with a massive parents rights book. Those meetings sucked.
 
#59
Thats a tuff call, on one hand you need some sort of measurement to compare and assess results, but rather than using a monetary reward or penalty for individual teachers at the discretion of the district, maybe place the resposibility on the school administraters first, they are payed well to make sure the students that attend there school do well. So lets start there and work down the chain to the the classroom. They should suceed or fail together as a school, and if a particular class or teacher is dragging down the overall performance as a whole, than that should be dealt with on a case by case manner to see what can be done for improvment. One always hopes that the parent's are partners in the childrens education but sometimes that just isnt the case sadly.

The best bumper sticker I ever saw said " the truly educated never graduate"
 

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