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How does the general public feel about...

I feel two ways about this:

1) The outputs should have SOME role in evaluation.

2) The teacher cannot fix what the parents and society have screwed up.

Therefore, I think that student outcomes need to be weighted differently based on the context of the school. Schools in crime-ridden low income areas are always going to have student results which are inferior to those of better neighborhoods. That's due to the environment in which the students live. It's not politically correct to say this, but see my #2 point above.
 
If this vision could somehow be implemented successfully, it would be wonderful!

I expect it would lead to 16-year-old third graders, however. I exaggerate to make a point since this point has already been addressed earlier in this thread.

I liken it to the vision of lowering health care costs by having everyone avoid being ill.

If it takes some one 2 or 3 times to repeat a grade to advance, then so be it. After the first time move them to a program that works specifically with special needs students or something like that. I think the bottom line is that we've essentially turned the schools over to the students and the parents, and we need to get control back in the hands of the teachers and administrators. If a kid needs to be held back a grade, screw it if the parents don't like it because their little precious Johnny or Suzy is really a genius but the administration is full of idiots who don't know what they're doing. There needs to be some kind of way to extend accountability to the parents/guardians of a child. I don't know how to do it, but there's got to be a way to do it.

With regard to the double edged sword thing, I agree with you, however I have a hard time, a very hard time, siding at all with the teachers striking on this issue. The average salary for a teacher in Chicago is $71,000 and change, $11,000 higher than the rest of the state, and the city just posted "record" graduation rates of less than 61%. If 39% of our kids aren't even graduating from high school, I think there's a serious problem at every level.
 
If it takes some one 2 or 3 times to repeat a grade to advance, then so be it. After the first time move them to a program that works specifically with special needs students or something like that. I think the bottom line is that we've essentially turned the schools over to the students and the parents, and we need to get control back in the hands of the teachers and administrators. If a kid needs to be held back a grade, screw it if the parents don't like it because their little precious Johnny or Suzy is really a genius but the administration is full of idiots who don't know what they're doing. There needs to be some kind of way to extend accountability to the parents/guardians of a child. I don't know how to do it, but there's got to be a way to do it.

With regard to the double edged sword thing, I agree with you, however I have a hard time, a very hard time, siding at all with the teachers striking on this issue. The average salary for a teacher in Chicago is $71,000 and change, $11,000 higher than the rest of the state, and the city just posted "record" graduation rates of less than 61%. If 39% of our kids aren't even graduating from high school, I think there's a serious problem at every level.

The dilemma is that a very high percentage of kids in innercity schools already have special needs, but putting them in Special Ed costs money: The teachers tend to get paid more, and are only allowed to teach a handful of students at any given time. In fact, the higher average salaries in Chicago could be due to the number of Special Ed teachers.

Far from defending Johnny and Suzy, the schools have to turn down parents who beg for their kids to be put into special programs, because there is no money.

As a bleeding heart liberal, I'd be happy to see more money spent on improving innercity schools. Here in Madison, some schools receive a rating that allows them to have smaller class sizes, which obviously costs more money but is probably beneficial. My kids attend a school with bigger class sizes.
 
I don't know how to do it, either. There's also the matter of doing it cost-effectively.

The push towards privatization of education is hard and strong; I expect it would be effective at some levels but would create a larger education achievement gap in the general population.

"Privatization" in the US is defined as "hand a bunch of free money to political cronies, with no accountability."
 
I was thinking about this thread today while I was at dinner, and this is something that I haven't seen in the discussion about inner city students, so I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with a little bit of background about my high school experience, because what I'm about to say may be offensive to some. I am of mainly Spanish, Irish, and German descent (1/4 of each, with the last 1/4 being made up of an amalgamation of English, French, Cherokee, and God knows what else). I was in the International Baccalaureate program in high school, lettered in Football, Track, and Orchestra, and was a member of The Gentlemen's Club, which was a club at school whose fundamental values were scholastic excellence and professionalism, and had exactly 3 non-black members (I was the first), and of our Step Team (only white member to date), which was initially sponsored by the Zeta Chi chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. The demographics of my school were such that Black students were 34% of the population, Whites were 29%, Hispanics were 27%, and the rest was made up of students of different ethnic backgrounds, Asian, Indian, Arab, etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that I had a very diverse group of people I would hang out with and I'd like to think that I learned a fair bit about a lot of the different groups at my school. I refused to let myself fall into the trap that many advanced students do, and trap themselves within their program's bubble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white
This is one of the things that, in my opinion, has lead to more failure than anything else. I saw this first hand on the football team, and with my black friends in IB, but it was most obvious with The Gentlemen's club/Step Team. We wore suits and ties on Club days, and on days we would pick throughout the year, usually coinciding with important events at the school, like days when middle school students would be taking tours, when the local elementary school would come and make their annual walk to our school, exam days, first days of school/semesters/9 weeks, etc. When we would walk around in our suits, we'd hear things, sometimes through other people, sometimes directly, to the effect of "There go them white ni**as." I heard it personally when I was trying to reach out to one of the guys on the football team who was struggling with his academics to join, and one of the other guys on the team said "Don't listen to him, that's for them ni**as that wanna be white". Incidentally, the kid I was recruiting wound up graduating with honors and getting a scholarship to Bethune-Cookman, and the wanna be gangster is serving jail-time for something, probably dealing drugs. This is a very real problem in schools with large minority populations, or at least with mine.

I've read op-eds and other things refuting it, and you're free to do so as you will, but from my own experience with it, I think that it's something is very real, and a very real threat to minority students.

YMMV, IMO, et al.
 
sloasdaylight said:
I was thinking about this thread today while I was at dinner, and this is something that I haven't seen in the discussion about inner city students, so I'm going to go ahead and say it.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with a little bit of background about my high school experience, because what I'm about to say may be offensive to some. I am of mainly Spanish, Irish, and German descent (1/4 of each, with the last 1/4 being made up of an amalgamation of English, French, Cherokee, and God knows what else). I was in the International Baccalaureate program in high school, lettered in Football, Track, and Orchestra, and was a member of The Gentlemen's Club, which was a club at school whose fundamental values were scholastic excellence and professionalism, and had exactly 3 non-black members (I was the first), and of our Step Team (only white member to date), which was initially sponsored by the Zeta Chi chapter of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. The demographics of my school were such that Black students were 34% of the population, Whites were 29%, Hispanics were 27%, and the rest was made up of students of different ethnic backgrounds, Asian, Indian, Arab, etc. I think it's pretty safe to say that I had a very diverse group of people I would hang out with and I'd like to think that I learned a fair bit about a lot of the different groups at my school. I refused to let myself fall into the trap that many advanced students do, and trap themselves within their program's bubble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acting_white
This is one of the things that, in my opinion, has lead to more failure than anything else. I saw this first hand on the football team, and with my black friends in IB, but it was most obvious with The Gentlemen's club/Step Team. We wore suits and ties on Club days, and on days we would pick throughout the year, usually coinciding with important events at the school, like days when middle school students would be taking tours, when the local elementary school would come and make their annual walk to our school, exam days, first days of school/semesters/9 weeks, etc. When we would walk around in our suits, we'd hear things, sometimes through other people, sometimes directly, to the effect of "There go them white ni**as." I heard it personally when I was trying to reach out to one of the guys on the football team who was struggling with his academics to join, and one of the other guys on the team said "Don't listen to him, that's for them ni**as that wanna be white". Incidentally, the kid I was recruiting wound up graduating with honors and getting a scholarship to Bethune-Cookman, and the wanna be gangster is serving jail-time for something, probably dealing drugs. This is a very real problem in schools with large minority populations, or at least with mine.

I've read op-eds and other things refuting it, and you're free to do so as you will, but from my own experience with it, I think that it's something is very real, and a very real threat to minority students.

YMMV, IMO, et al.

My school is IB and I'm the IB coordinator for our school. This is a program I firmly believe in. It's a great a approach to learning. In many ways I see this as the future of learning
 
I'll explain some problems that I have with teaching to the test. Now I'm not going to name any names, but imagine that one is acquainted with a couple of kids who consistently score in the 98th or 99th percentile in every subject, on every test. Teaching to the test is basically a waste of their time. It probably means that the test has been dumbed down until a sufficient percentage of kids can pass it.

A second problem is that some things can be tested, and some things can't. Teaching to the test distorts the subject matter that gets taught.

Granted, this is a first world problem. I think that teaching to the test would serve a purpose in a school where the test actually represents a high bar for most students. It is preferred by parents who come from countries with more authoritarian societies. It is also a way for teachers to teach, if they are not proficient in all subjects. Most elementary and middle school teachers in the US are weak in math.
 
This may sound kinda cold and heartless, but I think we need to focus on putting more kids out of school. I graduated high school in 2004, but up until that time, especially in high school, there were lots of kids that detracted from the learning environment and teachers couldn't really do much about it.

Put them out, maybe teach them a trade (if they show interest/aptitude) in it. The world will always need plumbers. But let them suck it in the real world, and let the students who at least aren't going to be a problem learn more.

Peace,
Greg

Yep. One of the reasons test scores and students are perceived as being so much better in the 50's and 60's, is that if a kid in high school really had no interest in learning (not slamming the kid - some just don't respond in the typical learning / class environment) that kid could easily drop out and go work in a factory or in the fields or at their parents locally owned store. And there was no horrible shame in it, at least not like there is today.

The end result then? The remaining student body of Juniors and Seniors of that time were on average higher achievers because many of the lower achievers had weeded themselves out of the school demographic.

Fast forward 50'ish years. Closed campuses are the rule. The students are in effect prisoners. Even if a kid wants to drop out, they know there are no opportunities for them to do anything else, so they stay in school. The sub-set of kids that would have separated themselves from the system now can't go do other things. The system has progressively adjusted to this by incrementally lowering the standards and trying to implement this and that new fangled bit of education theory to try and make things better, but they only bring things down further and are but band-aids that have not hidden the massive wound on both the education system and, on some level, our society. By trying to implement X standards across the board to try and fix things, we have lost sight in the elemental fact that each kid is an individual, and has strengths and weaknesses.

Oops... I'm rambling.

But, to answer the question, when you look at all the variables, merit pay for teachers is not as easy to figure out as one would think. Each year, a teacher has a new set of students. Each new class is starting from scratch as far as the student make-up of the classroom goes. The average ability levels of the student body will fluctuate from year to year. As a result, in any given year, teacher "A" my have more of a challenge staying within the metric that indicates improvement because the students under his tutelage as a whole are as advanced in the subject matter that the class the year before.

So, yeah, unless someone lays out a plan that demonstrated at least some compensation for the many variables that occur from one year to the next, I don't think merit pay is a very good solution.

PS. I have two teaching credentials and no teaching job. So, theoretically, I'm not a teacher! :)
 
I don't understand why everyone worries about "teaching to the test". It's not like the tests have special, never before seen questions on them....... it's general information.

Info that the kids should know.....if they've been taught correctly. IMO, of course.

it's general information

That is part of the problem. We're so busy trying to teach "general information" that we can't really get to heart and bones of teaching; going beyond the general information and getting the students to think about why this happened and why this works... or doesn't. "The test" btw, is mostly bubble-in, which doesn't incorporate much in the way of analysis or thought. When teaching to the test, the student learns when the battle of Anteitam was fought (anniversary tomorrow) but never gets the chance to go into the specific details as to why this battle was so important, because the teacher has to teach all the other stuff that's going to be on the test, so details and analysis are sacrificed so that students can score better on a multiple choice test.