How good are you at transposing "on the fly"?

[Appogee]

I recently started working as part of duo, with a singer-guitarist. We're building up a 3-hour set from scratch, so I'm learning a lot of songs mostly by downloading lyrics and chords from Ultimate Guitar.

From time to time we start rehearsing and he asks me change the key of the song from what I've learned it in (typically, the key it was recorded in by the original artist) to a new key that he's better able to sing it in. (Note: I have no problem with this ... I think it's important that we play in a key he can comfortably sing in.)

Whereas he can whack on a capo and effect an instant key change, I have to try to immediately transpose what I've learned into the new key. Too often I'm making mistakes, especially when the key change is to an uncommon key with lots of awkward sharps and flats.

I'm tossing up whether I should grit my teeth and just "get better", or whether I should just create some pitch-shift presets on my Zoom B6 effects pedal to do the transposing for me.

What do you think I should do?

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly? Am I just an inadequate bass player who needs to get more proficient at the skill of transposing?

 

[Zooberwerx]

I recently started working as part of duo, with a singer-guitarist. We're building up a 3-hour set from scratch, so I'm learning a lot of songs mostly by downloading lyrics and chords from Ultimate Guitar.

From time to time we start rehearsing and he asks me change the key of the song from what I've learned it in (typically, the key it was recorded in by the original artist) to a new key that he's better able to sing it in. (Note: I have no problem with this ... I think it's important that we play in a key he can comfortably sing in.)

Whereas he can whack on a capo and effect an instant key change, I have to try to immediately transpose what I've learned into the new key. Too often I'm making mistakes, especially when the key change is to an uncommon key with lots of awkward sharps and flats.

I'm tossing up whether I should grit my teeth and just "get better", or whether I should just create some pitch-shift presets on my Zoom B6 effects pedal to do the transposing for me.

What do you think I should do?

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly? Am I just an inadequate bass player who needs to get more proficient at the skill of transposing?

No, but I'm a pattern-player and use a 5 string. Know your scales, chord structures / inversions, and basic "box" patterns. It will get you back into the arena in short-order. I play country with three different lead vocalists...we're all over the map.

Riis

 

[DWBass]

I was in a band that rarely played songs in their original keys. Always had to transpose. Not an issue for me using a 5 string bass. But I did do a gig once as a sub with no rehearsal. Get to the gig and start playing and damn near every song had been transposed. With no advanced warning!! I play in the original keys and the other musicians look at me like I'm crazy! The guitarist was very helpful letting me know what key the songs were in. Got through the gig.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Better to learn how to do it rather than rely on a piece of gear/technology that might break in the middle of a gig.

 

[Zooberwerx]

I was in a band that rarely played songs in their original keys. Always had to transpose. Not an issue for me using a 5 string bass. But I did do a gig once as a sub with no rehearsal. Get to the gig and start playing and damn near every song had been transposed. With no advanced warning!! I play in the original keys and the other musicians look at me like I'm crazy! The guitarist was very helpful letting me know what key the songs were in. Got through the gig.

How difficult is it for the host band / BL to provide a suggested set list and key?!? Throw me a bone, would ya?

Riis

 

[DWBass]

How difficult is it for the host band / BL to provide a suggested set list and key?!? Throw me a bone, would ya?

Riis

Bro, BL is a school band teacher and relies solely on sheet music. He was thorough. I always had 'key' notes (first note played) on my own set list which also let me know what key we were playing in. I have dealt with BL's that never provided a setlist. Always called out tunes. Ugh!

 

[CatOnTheBass]

In my opinion a capo sounds better than any digital effects pedal solution I've tried. Also a lot cheaper! If you have a 4 string bass then a standard guitar capo should fit.

Bonus points a capo is also handy for checking your action, when you're doing setups.

 

[JRA]

What do you think I should do?

sounds like you'd be a better player, all around, if you "gritted your teeth." the pedal solution isn't one that i'd consider because of the difference in tones/timber (real vs. not real).

the cool part about "transposing on the fly" is that the more you do it (practice/gigs) the better you get!

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly?

not too much. some key/interval changes would present more of a challenge than others, but i'm probably the best 'transposer on the fly' in two bands --- i've had to do it since my youth (played saxes/woodwinds) so i have lots of experience transposing on the fly.

FWIW: to this day, even with a bass strapped on, i might look at a piece of unfamiliar music and position my fingers up a whole step (tenor/soprano sax) or down a 3rd (or up a 6th: alto/bari) without thinking.

 

[fdeck]

I can transpose tunes that I've learned by ear, or memorized. Transposing while sight-reading is nearly impossible for me, unless it's chord changes at a slow tempo. Fortunately, vocal tunes seldom have complex changes.

I once played a gig with a tribute that used a rhythm section and horns. As the BL handed out the charts, he said: "I'd like to try transposing everything down by a full step, to see if it works better with my voice." One by one the horn players said: "No problem." I was flabbergasted. It turns out the horns were an orchestral trombonist, trumpet professor, and music composition professor playing reeds. I was just a schmuck from town. I asked them about it at break, and they told me that transposing classical music is pretty common, because older material didn't have standardized keys for the instruments.

 

[tb-player]

The shapes are the shapes. And the intervals are the intervals. Ear-training is the best thing to assist with transposing. Beyond that, if you know the tune, the goal should be to play it anywhere on the neck.

Every pianist I know learns a move or progression. Then they practice it in every key. As bass players, we should strive to not be the weak link when it comes to theory or skill level. Never allow ourselves to be outdone by a piano player, guitarist or (God forbid) a drummer .

 

[jad]

I am a weekend warrior with no real music knowledge to draw on. I've transposed songs I know on the fly with so-so results. Not disastrous, but not great. That's one of the reasons why I have settings on my HX stomp for half and full step down, and half step up. Relying on hardware is a bit risky, so I put together similar settings on TH-U which runs on my Ipad as a backup.

 

[LBS-bass]

No trouble at all, but I didn't learn to play in the same way as most folks. If you learn something like the Nashville number system and you learn to associate the numbers with the finger position relative to what your root (I) is, then you will never need to transpose anything because, thankfully, almost all of the positions relative to the root are the same on the bass.

So instead of trying to think through this key versus that one, it's just a matter of starting on the root, whatever note that is, and playing the intervals. There's a bit of ear training involved in recognizing the intervals if you're really doing this on the fly. Otherwise you can write the Nashville numbers on a chord chart to help you get there in another key.

 

[darwin-bass]

1. Never play open strings. They make transposing more difficult.
2. Learn enough basic theory to understand typical chord progressions (1-4-6m-5, etc.)
3. Learn the Nashville number system (NNS).
4. Learn the patterns for playing the typical chord progressions at starting with the root note on the E and A string.

If you can write out a song in NNS notation and don't use open strings then transposing is usually as easy as just moving your hand up or down a few frets and playing the same patterns.

(edit - I see others are talking about NNS too)

 

[darwin-bass]

NNS players - Do you sometimes not even know what key you're in? You're just playing patterns and notes for the 1, 4, 5 chords? I find myself in that boat and when someone asks for the key I have to think about it.

 

[Mark Ambler]

1. Never play open strings. They make transposing more difficult.
2. Learn enough basic theory to understand typical chord progressions (1-4-6m-5, etc.)
3. Learn the Nashville number system (NNS).
4. Learn the patterns for playing the typical chord progressions at starting with the root note on the E and A string.

If you can write out a song in NNS notation and don't use open strings then transposing is usually as easy as just moving your hand up or down a few frets and playing the same patterns.

(edit - I see others are talking about NNS too)

Incorporating open strings is a key characteristic of jazz bass, and if you’re playing fretless, helps with intonation.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I recently started working as part of duo, with a singer-guitarist. We're building up a 3-hour set from scratch, so I'm learning a lot of songs mostly by downloading lyrics and chords from Ultimate Guitar.

From time to time we start rehearsing and he asks me change the key of the song from what I've learned it in (typically, the key it was recorded in by the original artist) to a new key that he's better able to sing it in. (Note: I have no problem with this ... I think it's important that we play in a key he can comfortably sing in.)

Whereas he can whack on a capo and effect an instant key change, I have to try to immediately transpose what I've learned into the new key. Too often I'm making mistakes, especially when the key change is to an uncommon key with lots of awkward sharps and flats.

I'm tossing up whether I should grit my teeth and just "get better", or whether I should just create some pitch-shift presets on my Zoom B6 effects pedal to do the transposing for me.

What do you think I should do?

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly? Am I just an inadequate bass player who needs to get more proficient at the skill of transposing?

Not too much because I just move the patterns around on the neck as needed. Eb always sucks unless I'm using my 5-string, but other than that as long as I know the song in one key moving it a half step or a full step isn't much of a problem.

If the 1 chord is on the A string, like an Eb played on 6th fret of the A string, and I really don't want to play the IV and V chords up higher on the D string, I may play them down below the tonic on the E string instead, for a lower/fuller sound. Or I may mix it up and alternate the use between the low and the octave locations as the inclination strikes me.

Usually, if I'm comfortable with the song, moving it around a bit to accommodate the vocalist is not a problem. When I was first touring in 1971 our female vocalist had a beautiful voice but very limited range. Bb was her preferred key. I showed her how to breathe so she'd use all of her lungs instead of just the top half of them and all of a sudden she had plenty of breath support; her vocal range expanded a lot; and we didn't have to transpose things nearly as often.

What I found out was more difficult was playing a 4-string with the E-string dropped to D, or C. If I learn the song that way, it's no big deal. However, when (not if) I'd forget to tune it back up to E for the next song at a performance, then transposing on the fly is definitely a challenge.

 

[Biggbass]

Transposing on the fly? Not much of a challenge for me. I learned how to transpose 40 years ago in school and have been putting it to use ever since.

 

[DaveB in VA]

NNS players - Do you sometimes not even know what key you're in? You're just playing patterns and notes for the 1, 4, 5 chords? I find myself in that boat and when someone asks for the key I have to think about it.

The root of the 1 chord is the key. But you have to be careful about the enharmonic equivalents. For example, A# is not a key. That would be Bb. All of the sharp keys have natural notes for the root except for C# and F# (i.e., G, D, A, E, B, F#, C#). All of the flat keys have flat notes for the root except for F (i.e., F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb).

 

[jazzwalk]

...If you learn something like the Nashville number system and you learn to associate the numbers with the finger position relative to what your root (I) is, then you will never need to transpose anything... /QUOTE]

Yes, learn to use the Nashville system, and always have a #2 pencil ready at the gig!

 

[LBS-bass]

NNS players - Do you sometimes not even know what key you're in? You're just playing patterns and notes for the 1, 4, 5 chords? I find myself in that boat and when someone asks for the key I have to think about it.

I generally don't think about keys at all except for positioning my hands to start a song. Someone will say it's such-and-such in G and I know that G is also the first chord, so away we go. If they say "start the intro on the 5 then I know to start on that note (D) and not the G, but I'm probably not thinking "D" so much as "over one and up 2." And I'm really not even thinking that, because after years of doing this I know where my 5 is relative to the root.