Unless I need the low Eb, I usually play Eb and Bb roots at the sixth fret and work around those notes for those keys.
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How good are you at transposing "on the fly"?
- Thread starter Appogee
- Start date
This.
It's worked well for me over the years. Once you know the root, all of the other notes are in the same place. It ain't hard...
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I could brag and tell you I can because I play Eb and Bb woodwind and also playing jazz but that won't help.
On bass guitar memorize E or G form and the C or A forms of finger patterns to do the major and minor scales. For example. Original key is G and they want to do F#. You shift the G pattern one fret down and then the 4 and 5 of the song which is C and D, will also be shifted down to C# and B. The trick is to think in the original key but physically you have shifted it. There is also the Nashville numbering system, very effective.
I learned this from a guy who did cruise ships and was also a musician in Japan, when I was 16. I did have piano background as a child but that was just rote sight reading.
Later when started playing saxophone and then playing in bands, I had to transpose on the fly. It was easier with Bb but a bit challenging with Eb. Then I also played bass with horn players and some of them were not good at transposing and some asked me to write the lines for them. So I learned that way. I did not go to music school though. Even though my digital piano can transpose, I transpose the old fashion way. I also like the tonality of the black keys. I do not follow the rules of note naming though, meaning if they key calls for a note to be sharp and not flat -- I tend to favor flat -- meaning I call C# Db. Some schooled folks cannot stand that.
On bass guitar memorize E or G form and the C or A forms of finger patterns to do the major and minor scales. For example. Original key is G and they want to do F#. You shift the G pattern one fret down and then the 4 and 5 of the song which is C and D, will also be shifted down to C# and B. The trick is to think in the original key but physically you have shifted it. There is also the Nashville numbering system, very effective.
I learned this from a guy who did cruise ships and was also a musician in Japan, when I was 16. I did have piano background as a child but that was just rote sight reading.
Later when started playing saxophone and then playing in bands, I had to transpose on the fly. It was easier with Bb but a bit challenging with Eb. Then I also played bass with horn players and some of them were not good at transposing and some asked me to write the lines for them. So I learned that way. I did not go to music school though. Even though my digital piano can transpose, I transpose the old fashion way. I also like the tonality of the black keys. I do not follow the rules of note naming though, meaning if they key calls for a note to be sharp and not flat -- I tend to favor flat -- meaning I call C# Db. Some schooled folks cannot stand that.
Depends on how well I know the song, how many changes it has, and if there are any riffs that end up sounding weird in the new key.
One of the most difficult was a guitarist that transposed Bob Marley’s “Lively Up Yourself” from G to D. One time I regretted not having a 5-string. It was tough to play the chorus riff w/o the open strings.
One of the most difficult was a guitarist that transposed Bob Marley’s “Lively Up Yourself” from G to D. One time I regretted not having a 5-string. It was tough to play the chorus riff w/o the open strings.
If I'm quite familiar with the tune, pick a key, any key!! However, if it's a tune new to me, I'd rather wing it by ear during the gig, than work on it in a key they don't play it in. I have a good grasp of theory, which helps. My advice to the OP would be to avoid an electronic "crutch" as others have stated. A capo is ok, but, there is no real substitute for knowledge. In this day and age, there is unlimited learning available online. Often, free of charge! Good luck with whatever you decide!!
I was in an old-school country and western swing band way back, and they were always changing keys around, even at gigs. I decided to do it like the Nashville cats and started using the numbers system. I wrote out all my charts that way. It is one of the best things I ever got under my belt, for any genre. I only play four string and I can transpose anything quickly. I'm not stuck to "shapes" or finger patterns on the fretboard - I could play a 3 string bass or a 6 string bass and it wouldn't matter.
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I have been doing this a long time in multiple genres and usually don't have any issue with it. I would agree with the suggestion to use NNS or some equivalent number form, but I would also say that I have seen some pretty hairy NNS charts with bass notes moving against the chord tones, modulations, stabs and such, so while it can certainly simplify charts it's not always just 1 4 5.
It sounds to me like the OP is pretty much experiencing this in rehearsal and not on the set. So I would guess that once the BL/singer gets the tune in the key they are comfortable with then it would hopefully settle down as far as live performance. The really tight situations are when a BL does this live ... or even crazier/funnier, a BL who is a capo using guitar player mis-capo's just as they are kicking off a tune live. This has happened to me more times than I can count and you just go with it and hold on tight.
As Richie Blackmore is known to have said to his Rainbow band members before a particularly exciting song "hold on gents, its every man for himself"
It sounds to me like the OP is pretty much experiencing this in rehearsal and not on the set. So I would guess that once the BL/singer gets the tune in the key they are comfortable with then it would hopefully settle down as far as live performance. The really tight situations are when a BL does this live ... or even crazier/funnier, a BL who is a capo using guitar player mis-capo's just as they are kicking off a tune live. This has happened to me more times than I can count and you just go with it and hold on tight.
As Richie Blackmore is known to have said to his Rainbow band members before a particularly exciting song "hold on gents, its every man for himself"
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Yeah, in my case, the numbers charts I write for myself are quite simple--just the chords for the most part. I still have to learn and memorize the tune ahead of time. Sometimes a certain riff, walking part, or whatever will of course have a different "shape" on the fretboard in a different key, but that's why I don't think it's ultimately good to rely on fingering patterns like that.
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This is an opportunity to get better at something you’re currently not really comfortable with.
I was talking with someone on some other thread about the NNS (Nashville Number System). It's well worth learning, as is thinking of songs in terms of numbers in general. Once you get the basics down no one will ever be able to throw you by wanting to transpose into a different key. You'll be able to do it pretty much instantly.
+1 to this. I am not a pattern player. I do like to know what key a song is in and what harmonic form is being followed whenever possible.
There's an interesting side conversation to be had here about what constitutes a pattern player. I end up playing patterns but they are based on familiar intervals; I didn't start out by learning specific patterns or some sort of "box" but through playing intervals by ear I began to recognize that there are patterns at play here and those can be used and notated using numbers to keep things simple. But for me, it's always intervals I'm playing - the patterns are really just common phrases that get used a lot in various music forms, and you can't help but notice them after you've been playing for a while.
Yep. Of course, I know the notes I'm playing, but once you start "thinking in numbers" it's amazing how easy transposing is on the fly.
Relying on pitch-shifting tech is a great way to stifle your growth and eventually work yourself into a position where it costs you a gig.
I played a gig with a keyboard player who never learned all his keys and just used the transpose function. His setup broke, someone loaned him keys that didn't transpose the same, and he couldn't play half the gig. Got fired that night.
There are only 12 notes. In a given song it's likely that 7 of them are in the key, and of those you can even skate by with avoiding a couple of them entirely if you aren't sure of their quality. So we're really talking about learning how to follow 3 or 4 notes per key, and in the majority of settings your ears are going to lead you to the right notes even if your hands get lost.
If you want to play with others then put the work in. Learn your fretboard top to bottom. Learn every note, how many you have, where each one is located, and how to find it immediately. Learning intervallic theory (IE the numbers) makes it even easier, to the point where someone can literally flash their fingers at you on stage and you can play the song.
My teacher once said "The day you find something that's difficult, or that you cannot do at all, is a great day and you should celebrate. It just gave you a roadmap to get better. You know exactly what to do and you know that if you do you'll become a better musician from it."
I played a gig with a keyboard player who never learned all his keys and just used the transpose function. His setup broke, someone loaned him keys that didn't transpose the same, and he couldn't play half the gig. Got fired that night.
There are only 12 notes. In a given song it's likely that 7 of them are in the key, and of those you can even skate by with avoiding a couple of them entirely if you aren't sure of their quality. So we're really talking about learning how to follow 3 or 4 notes per key, and in the majority of settings your ears are going to lead you to the right notes even if your hands get lost.
If you want to play with others then put the work in. Learn your fretboard top to bottom. Learn every note, how many you have, where each one is located, and how to find it immediately. Learning intervallic theory (IE the numbers) makes it even easier, to the point where someone can literally flash their fingers at you on stage and you can play the song.
My teacher once said "The day you find something that's difficult, or that you cannot do at all, is a great day and you should celebrate. It just gave you a roadmap to get better. You know exactly what to do and you know that if you do you'll become a better musician from it."
Yes, I can transpose on the fly, especially on bass guitar (upright poses additional challenges because of fingering difficulties in certain keys). I think of tunes per what's described as the numbering system, above, from the first time I learn them. In other words, the song goes I-V-vi-!V - or whatever it is. I don't think it's that hard to learn; I suggest you just keep at it.
Only on upright bass. On bass guitar, I can always shift up or down the neck and use the same fingerings. That's what most bass guitarists do.
Upright bass calls for more use of open strings, position shifting is complicated by the heel being much closer to the nut than on a bass guitar and the left hand is only a three fret stretch, not four as on a bass guitar.. I often use completely different fingerings on upright, so when I have to transpose on the fly I have to think about it a little.
Had a BL randomly transpose tunes up or down a half step. I decided that the most practical solution was a second bass tuned down a half step.
