How good are you at transposing "on the fly"?

[2F/2F]

Transposing on bass is as easy as it gets. We’re lucky in that regard. There’s no acceptable excuse for not being able to do it with your eyes closed.

If you can’t do it, then you’re stuck on thinking in notes, when you should be thinking almost entirely in intervals.

It’s absolutely fundamental technique; it was quite literally the entire focus of my second second lesson ever: Thinking in intervals/patterns, not notes, and moving them around the board.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I recently started working as part of duo, with a singer-guitarist. We're building up a 3-hour set from scratch, so I'm learning a lot of songs mostly by downloading lyrics and chords from Ultimate Guitar.

From time to time we start rehearsing and he asks me change the key of the song from what I've learned it in (typically, the key it was recorded in by the original artist) to a new key that he's better able to sing it in. (Note: I have no problem with this ... I think it's important that we play in a key he can comfortably sing in.)

Whereas he can whack on a capo and effect an instant key change, I have to try to immediately transpose what I've learned into the new key. Too often I'm making mistakes, especially when the key change is to an uncommon key with lots of awkward sharps and flats.

I'm tossing up whether I should grit my teeth and just "get better", or whether I should just create some pitch-shift presets on my Zoom B6 effects pedal to do the transposing for me.

What do you think I should do?

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly? Am I just an inadequate bass player who needs to get more proficient at the skill of transposing?

Listen to the advice of the legendary Ray Brown: when you learn a new song, learn it in all twelve keys.

 

[Topkat13]

Zipped or unzipped?

 

[juancaminos]

I'm better than anyone else in the band. I don't find it that hard.

 

[Ewo]

This is along the same line as the Nashville Number System--but I first learned it in music theory under the name functional harmony...

I memorize tunes by relating all the chord changes to the tonal center--the key. I don't think of the specific letter names of the chords so much, but more as where the root of each chord sits relative to the key center: I, IV, V, ii, vi, etc. And there's a harmonic color associated with each chord: maj, min, dom 7, aug 9, etc.*

Learning new tunes that way makes it much easier to transpose to another key when needed. And it opens me up to more linear possibilities on the fretboard than learning them just as finger patterns--which puts me in a better position to adapt when a finger pattern doesn't work so well moved a few frets up or down on the neck. Moreover, habitually thinking about the music that way has really helped me with ear training.

* A lot of tunes generate some melodic and/or harmonic color by going outside the scale of the key center, so I memorize both the root and the color/mode. A good example, say, is the outro of Dock of the Bay. It's the I and vi, except the vi is actually VI (a major chord on the sixth degree, rather than the minor). In country tunes, you'll often have the ii be a II7. That's why I think of the root and mode as two independent variables.

 

[lark_z]

NNS players - Do you sometimes not even know what key you're in? You're just playing patterns and notes for the 1, 4, 5 chords? I find myself in that boat and when someone asks for the key I have to think about it.

Ha, YES. Once I learn the chord pattern to the song, I sort of forget which key it's in. I just know it's a 1, 4, 6, 1, 2 or whatever and that I start on say the D on the A String.

My guitar buddy will say - what chord is that? Hmm - We'll it's a 2 in D.

Back to the OP. Learning the chord progressions for the song in NNS and then already knowing the patterns of the notes (ie - Where are the places I could play a 6? for example) and I'm good.

I did get thrown awhile back. He wants to play "Ramblin' Man" by the Allman Brothers. Not in G# like the recording, but in E. Some mental gymnastics to get there especially if you want to stay low.

 

[Willie5String]

I recently started working as part of duo, with a singer-guitarist. We're building up a 3-hour set from scratch, so I'm learning a lot of songs mostly by downloading lyrics and chords from Ultimate Guitar.

From time to time we start rehearsing and he asks me change the key of the song from what I've learned it in (typically, the key it was recorded in by the original artist) to a new key that he's better able to sing it in. (Note: I have no problem with this ... I think it's important that we play in a key he can comfortably sing in.)

Whereas he can whack on a capo and effect an instant key change, I have to try to immediately transpose what I've learned into the new key. Too often I'm making mistakes, especially when the key change is to an uncommon key with lots of awkward sharps and flats.

I'm tossing up whether I should grit my teeth and just "get better", or whether I should just create some pitch-shift presets on my Zoom B6 effects pedal to do the transposing for me.

What do you think I should do?

Do you have trouble transposing on the fly? Am I just an inadequate bass player who needs to get more proficient at the skill of transposing?

Depends, I’m at the end of the day a position player, if you want to transpose a 1-4-5, I’m your man, if you want me to transpose “All or me”, or some jazz type tune, I’m not your man.

 

[Ostie]

I stand by my statement. If the guitarist capoes or they play songs in different open tunings, that’s important info to know, especially for a sub.

I understand about transposing on the fly, and I can do it. But I want to know before the downbeat.

 

[BeMoreFrench]

First I’ve got some solid ear training cos’ I started listening to jazz as early as I can remember, it was a family thing. Then piano and guitar, and had siblings playing music, so as soon as I took on bass my relative, near perfect sometimes, pitch did the job well. Plus I’ve been working on EarMaster Pro software with the bass in hands, and started early shedding nearly everything in all 12 tones in cycle of 5ths for example.

I’d would say: always work both ear training and fretboard technique at the same time, singing anything you play, it helps transcribing. You’ll memorize intervals quicker.

 

[P. Aaron]

Bro, BL is a school band teacher and relies solely on sheet music. He was thorough. I always had 'key' notes (first note played) on my own set list which also let me know what key we were playing in. I have dealt with BL's that never provided a setlist. Always called out tunes. Ugh!

When I played in a Oldies Cover band, the guitar player leading-singing the song would just holler; "G" or "D" or some such meaning it was the chord they were starting with, not necessarily the key the song was scored in.
Thus, it was usually about 3 lyric lines before I remembered or at least knew of a song. Fun times but, I love those kinds of challenges.

 

[P. Aaron]

I was talking with someone on some other thread about the NNS (Nashville Number System). It's well worth learning, as is thinking of songs in terms of numbers in general. Once you get the basics down no one will ever be able to throw you by wanting to transpose into a different key. You'll be able to do it pretty much instantly.

You can also, without an instrument, sit and listen to any song and find the 1, then the 6, 7, 2, whatever changes come next. I do this because the key is not nearly as worrisome as developing pattern or sequence to back the changes.

 

[Element Zero]

Transposing on the fly should be no problem at all on a fretted string instrument. Just like slapping on a capo.

If it’s an issue for you, you need to study your instrument.

So, let’s see you pull off Dream Theater Dance of Eternity in any key other than the original… on the fly…

 

[LBS-bass]

I did get thrown awhile back. He wants to play "Ramblin' Man" by the Allman Brothers. Not in G# like the recording, but in E. Some mental gymnastics to get there especially if you want to stay low.

This happens to most of us when we find we need the open strings. But I find practice make perfect (or at least good enough) here, as well. If you know your problem areas, you can practice those exceptions to the rules so that you won't be flustered when you need to incorporate open strings.

I play with a blues guitarist who uses a lot of those keys for his vocal range, and it's been helpful to me to practice his songs in his preferred keys, but not just for those songs - if he changes his mind and calls any song in one of those keys, I know where to go with it.

This is one reason I shy away from the often-heard advice to avoid open strings. There's no real reason for it, beyond the minor tonal differences associated with open versus fretted. But if you never play them, you will never have the magic under your fingers to play them when you really need to. And you won't have the flexibility to choose them when you really want to.

I play a song with a different band that does a 1-4-5 thing in the key of A. The progression starting on the A is A-E-G-G# and back to the A, repeat until the change. The E is an open string, so it goes low for that second note and walks back up. The change starts the same progression at the fifth fret of the A string, so it's D-A-C-C# with the A going low.

The beautiful thing here is that I have a choice. I can keep things consistent and also play that A on the open string, or I can choose to play that A at the fifth fret of the E string. Sometimes I choose one way, sometimes the other way. I have to sing through it, and they're equally easy for me. But it's nice to have the option of consistency on those first two chords, even though I will play the fully fretted pattern when I go up for the five.

The point is that little things like this, if you practice them and value them enough, will improve your choices if you think of them as opportunities to become more flexible rather than rules you have to break. I know that not everyone sees them as rules, but the thing about never playing open strings seems to be a rule for lots of folks.

 

[zontar]

Sometimes it's easy for me--especially if it's like everything up one or two frets--even if I use open strings (which I like to do in some songs for the extra punch it gives when you alternate an open string with the fretted note)
But going lower it can mess me up if it involves open strings--but if it doesn't --then probably

But it also depends on tempo & rhythm, and that sort of thing

 

[micguy]

The more I practice, the more my pitch memory takes over - my brain and my hands know where to go without conscious thought. I play in pretty much every key on a regular basis - church gigs with singers picking keys does that. Anyway, once I learn a tune, when it comes up again, I can play it in whatever key easily. Unfortunately, my pitch memory means I can’t play in non standard tunings easily - my brain hears “C”, and if C is in a different location, my brain fights me - it knows where C is, I can’t just move the pattern a couple frets.

 

[LBS-bass]

The more I practice, the more my pitch memory takes over - my brain and my hands know where to go without conscious thought. I play in pretty much every key on a regular basis - church gigs with singers picking keys does that. Anyway, once I learn a tune, when it comes up again, I can play it in whatever key easily. Unfortunately, my pitch memory means I can’t play in non standard tunings easily - my brain hears “C”, and if C is in a different location, my brain fights me - it knows where C is, I can’t just move the pattern a couple frets.

This is exactly what happens with me. When I learn how a song goes, I know what to reach for with the changes regardless of the key I am in. But the tradeoff, as you say, it mastering altered tunings because unless they are tunings where all the changes are the same for each string, they are not going to behave well with the way I do things normally.

That said, I've never tried to do a drop D or something like that because I assume it'd be a learning curve I'm not interested in grappling with. But perhaps it would be easier than I imagine. I just feel that the freedom I gain with doing it the way i do it far outweighs any benefit I might get from the occasional altered tuning.

 

[micguy]

This is exactly what happens with me. When I learn how a song goes, I know what to reach for with the changes regardless of the key I am in. But the tradeoff, as you say, it mastering altered tunings because unless they are tunings where all the changes are the same for each string, they are not going to behave well with the way I do things normally.

That said, I've never tried to do a drop D or something like that because I assume it'd be a learning curve I'm not interested in grappling with. But perhaps it would be easier than I imagine. I just feel that the freedom I gain with doing it the way i do it far outweighs any benefit I might get from the occasional altered tuning.

I moved to 5’s because I needed extended range, but standard tuning - I tried a bass tuned in D standard for a while, but to play that thing on a gig, I had to play it all week to get my brain wrapped around it. In the end, playing 5’s (all 5’s) was the ticket - I got the range I needed, a constant physical platform (my basses all have the same neck profile), and I can use my pitch memory to my advantage, not fight it.

 

[dougjwray]

I think in notes, not positions or NNS. Also, I often write charts for myself in standard notation (no chord symbols) , to capture the essential hooks, etc. Transposing that on the fly isn't easy, and I've sometimes written a chart in multiple keys when a singing guitar player says, "Let's try it in E, but I might find it easier in F or F#."
When I do have basic chord sheets, it's no problem at all, except in those rare mind-twisting cases where I have to go from F# to A flat, or something.
I have absolutely no problem with the standard, simple open mic/jam session tunes ("Ain't No Sunshine", etc.) which require no chart at all. Of course, the same for blues tunes
A side note: I've posted before about guitarists and their stupid capos. It's actually not the capos... It's the lack of awareness. I've played with guitarists who email me a song list with keys, I write out charts, and then find out at the next rehearsal that to the guitarist, the key is D even if the capo is on the 6th fret, or something. To them, it's all about the shapes. If I'm playing with an alto sax player, for example, and cueing him or her on keys, I'll say "This is concert C, so you're in A", just to make it clear. I wish more capo-reliant guitarists would understand this concept.

 

[chris_b]

. . . . Know your scales, chord structures / inversions, and basic "box" patterns.

This.

Patterns will get you there. I gig with many bands and enjoy the challenge of new songs and new sets.

Every gig you're building your experience. It's a challenge, but learning can be fun. Grit those teeth and become a better player.

 

[LBS-bass]

A side note: I've posted before about guitarists and their stupid capos. It's actually not the capos... It's the lack of awareness.

I was quite spoiled early on because the first guitarist I ever worked with was classically trained and could play anything in any key and transpose on the fly without any thought. He didn't even own a capo and thought they were weak sauce but was not mean-spirited toward those with less training.

I worked with him for about a decade. My head was definitely skewed by this because I really believed that most guitarists would have enough training to not need a capo, and have always had my heart sink just a little when the capos come out of the case.

You are correct that most of the don't understand the concept of concert pitch and believe the key is designated by the chord forms they are playing rather than the pitches they are producing. It's one of those things I have had to make peace with.