Double Bass How important is Scale Length? Pros? Cons?

[VictorW126]

Is there a tonal or other musical advantage of a 41" over a 34"? This is for electric upright bass. I have the latter. I'm 6'6" and the longer length isn't an issue. Thanks

Length 41 (on EUB) allows you to use strings for double bass. This is very important if you are aiming for a DB sound. It also allows the use of the standard double bass technique, which is essential for tone. Length 34 brings sound and fingering closer to standard BG. Everyone chooses for himself.

 

[jj.833]

Basically, longer string can vibrate more strongly, thus it transfers more energy to the bridge and body of a double bass. This results in louder tone, as well as in richer frequency spectrum, especially more pronounced mids and highs. (High harmonics can develop more with string's stronger ability to vibrate. High harmonics are harder to develop but easier to perceive.)

With double bass, the sound you hear comes mainly from the body, so the 'final' sound spectrum is a compromise of string vibration and body's ability to ampilfy the vibrations. With EUB, you pickup the sound coming from the bridge, slab body having a very little effect on the sound. I would think that with EUB, the scale lenght is much less important than with double bass, at least from acoustic perspective. There are many types of strings available, and theoretically, there might exist the right combination of string type and body damping that might emulate the double bass fine enough. I don't think that anyone found it so far, but that's just me.

However, with proper scale, your playing technique may become very similar to double bass playing. I believe this is the right key. In my opinion, the double bass sound comes mainly from the way you are playing it. The more I play the double bass, the more I explore the ocean of sound possibilities. It's endless. Many shiny things I loved at first (like the growl) get less important in time, while subtler 'details' like overall voice leading become the important stuff. I can see how deeply the double bass changed my musical thinking over time.

With proper double bass scale, you can adapt to a real double bass very easily. If you delve into upright world for real, there's a high chance you will.

 

[Steven Ayres]

Is there a tonal or other musical advantage of a 41" over a 34"?

I can hear distinct differences in overtone series as scale length increases. This is often perceived as tonal richness. On DB the longer scale and larger body also afford greater output volume and presence.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Thank you for the replies! I figure I'll use my34" scale Zeta for now (it's 5 string) and then look for a 41" EUB down the line. An acoustic would be great if a reasonably priced but still great one shows up.

 

[damonsmith]

Going with B-String and Mojo Man above, the short scale helps in injury prevention -- given that, and the great era bass building we are lucky enough to live in, shouldn't we start to consider, say, a 40-41" string length as OPTIMUM for a modern bass?

I think relaxed technique is going to help more with injury prevention. The technique we use is from when people were far smaller. 40-42 seems normal. My old bass is a bit under 41 and Chadwick is right at 41.

Thank you for the replies! I figure I'll use my34" scale Zeta for now (it's 5 string) and then look for a 41" EUB down the line. An acoustic would be great if a reasonably priced but still great one shows up.

I would replace it sooner than later. What you need is something traditional technique works on. You are just setting yourself up to having to rework everything from the ground up.

Also, trying to use shorter scale as a work around just trades one issue for another - you might have an easier time with the first few half steps, but as the pitches get higher you are going to have a tighter and tighter space to work in.

 

[Jeff Newton]

I think relaxed technique is going to help more with injury prevention. The technique we use is from when people were far smaller. 40-42 seems normal. My old bass is a bit under 41 and Chadwick is right at 41.



I would replace it sooner than later. What you need is something traditional technique works on. You are just setting yourself up to having to rework everything from the ground up.

Also, trying to use shorter scale as a work around just trades one issue for another - you might have an easier time with the first few half steps, but as the pitches get higher you are going to have a tighter and tighter space to work in.

Isn't the technique identical, save the distance issue? I have giant hands and really long fingers, if that helps answer the inquiry. The issues of people injuring themselves with the longer scale would probably not apply to me (that's my guess, anyway). I've played saxophone for decades, but new to any string instrument.

 

[damonsmith]

Isn't the technique identical, save the distance issue? I have giant hands and really long fingers, if that helps answer the inquiry. The issues of people injuring themselves with the longer scale would probably not apply to me (that's my guess, anyway). I've played saxophone for decades, but new to any string instrument.

No. You will need a teacher and something with a normal scale or you are going to have to rework everything. It is a question of playing reliably in tune with a solid system - the injuries comes from bad/tense technique, not scale.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Yeah, any instrument can cause damage! Saxophone causes TMJ, piano causes tendinitis, etc. I have an excellent book called "playing less hurt" that is helpful in general. But as to 34" versus 41" scale bass in particular, it's the same basic technique, or am I wrong on that? I do have absolute pitch, which has so far helped. I have a 34" scale Fender Jazz EB as well.

 

[damonsmith]

Yeah, any instrument can cause damage! Saxophone causes TMJ, piano causes tendinitis, etc. I have an excellent book called "playing less hurt" that is helpful in general. But as to 34" versus 41" scale bass in particular, it's the same basic technique, or am I wrong on that? I do have absolute pitch, which has so far helped. I have a 34" scale Fender Jazz EB as well.

You are wrong. The technique is based on the hand shapes for a normal scale. You need a normal scale instrument and a teacher or it is just going to end up weird. Perfect pitch and big hands cause as many issue as they solve.
If short scale instruments worked we would all have them. Short scale EUBs are just marketing ploys to dupe bass guitarists into buying one - and they are fine for the weekend bassist who wants to play at being an upright player. Not helpful in the least for anyone actually interested in playing the instrument.

 

[Acoop]

No idea what your height and hand size is but, I think that comes into play when considering an upright. If you’ve never spent any time on an upright you’ll notice muscles you never considered before so don’t rush and try taking your time till your body adapts. Upright is a strain on the back, shoulders and wrists. I’ve been at it 30 years but I remember practicing regularly a good eight months before taking it out to a gig. I’d suggest a 3/4 with a 41” string length and buy real good strings. Spiro welsh have lighter tension and you’ll notice that.

 

[Jeff Newton]

What is different about the technique? I wouldn't have "normal" hand shapes (at least I don't think so...). I can reach C to A on piano (almost 2 octaves). Bass, baritone sax and piano all "fit" my giant hands. My main axe is tenor sax, and I have to use corks to make it bigger to fit.

AFAICT, it's just a longer reach between the notes, or am I missing something? Does one actually use a different technique / hand position? If so, what is it? As to the 34" Zeta, it is quite portable. It also sounds great, but I did try an actual acoustic bass and I did notice the difference. That said, I would be looking at a 41" EUB, not an acoustic, at least at this time.

 

[Jeff Newton]

No idea what your height and hand size is but, I think that comes into play when considering an upright. If you’ve never spent any time on an upright you’ll notice muscles you never considered before so don’t rush and try taking your time till your body adapts. Upright is a strain on the back, shoulders and wrists. I’ve been at it 30 years but I remember practicing regularly a good eight months before taking it out to a gig. I’d suggest a 3/4 with a 41” string length and buy real good strings. Spiro welsh have lighter tension and you’ll notice that.

Most of the bass players I've worked with use 3/4, isn't that "standard"? I'm near a store (Johnson Strings) that has everything to try. I'm 6'6", C to A on piano (almost 2 octaves), palm basketball easily, etc. Piano since 69, sax since 73.

 

[Acoop]

Most of the bass players I've worked with use 3/4, isn't that "standard"? I'm near a store (Johnson Strings) that has everything to try. I'm 6'6", C to A on piano (almost 2 octaves), palm basketball easily, etc. Piano since 69, sax since 73.

At 6'6" you may need a longer end pin. ... I'm seventy and been at upright for thirty years and I do Tai Chi which I would suggest you try it to help maintain an athletes stand, both knees slightly bent, while standing to practice and play. And try not sitting to play upright, that's very hard on the lower back. ... I know some guys who came to the upright later in life that developed carpal tunnel and all kinds of aches and pains. ... They say upright and trumpet are the two most physical instruments to play. ... I play trumpet also.

 

[AGCurry]

Is there a tonal or other musical advantage of a 41" over a 34"? This is for electric upright bass. I have the latter. I'm 6'6" and the longer length isn't an issue. Thanks

An EUB with 34" scale will sound a lot like a bass guitar. A DB-scaled EUB will sound more like, well, a double bass. And, if you ever want to play an actual double bass, you'll have the advantage of being accustomed to the scale. Most importantly, the advice concerning the fact that techniques are quite different for the respective instruments is spot on.

 

[fdeck]

What is different about the technique?

I play upright, electric, and cello. In my view, there are multiple schools of thought on technique for all of these instruments, so you could find a single technique that "works" on all of them. That's about as far as it goes.

But there are schools of technique on each of those instruments, that exploit the differences in scale length, string height, tension, and so forth, and that are also reflective of the risk of injury on each instrument. So for instance, the cello has "stretch" position, that has no analogue on bass. Electric has 4-finger techniques, various kinds of thumb pivoting, etc. There are techniques that you can get away with for longer on electric, that you wouldn't want to try in upright.

Upright, in terms of how most bassists actually play it, is much more limited. When I see local players straying from basic 1-2-4 technique, they're either compensating for an injury, or are on their way to getting one.

 

[Jeff Newton]

I also just bought an electric cello! It arrives Friday. That's as small as I can go for string instruments. Of any of the string instruments, DB seems to fit my giant hands the best. Mind you, I play all the saxophones, but refuse clarinet and flute on "too small" grounds. And 6'6" cats are just "not" supposed to play piccolo! Guitars are the most problematic; I'm getting extra wide neck ones, and it's pricey.

Dumb question: What's "1-2-4" technique?

 

[Jeff Newton]

An EUB with 34" scale will sound a lot like a bass guitar. A DB-scaled EUB will sound more like, well, a double bass. And, if you ever want to play an actual double bass, you'll have the advantage of being accustomed to the scale. Most importantly, the advice concerning the fact that techniques are quite different for the respective instruments is spot on.

I'd say my 34" scale Zeta "feels" like a DB as far as interfacing with the strings goes, and of course it's fretless, which is brand new to me. As to sound, I'd say "more" like DB than my Fender electric, but not quite "there." Really portable, though, and can be played EB style or DB style as far as position goes (i.e., guitar strap / horizontal or vertical).

 

[AGCurry]

Of any of the string instruments, DB seems to fit my giant hands the best.
Dumb question: What's "1-2-4" technique?

It's not a dumb question, but the fact that you ask it indicates that you have a knowledge gap which is preventing you from understanding what we have been trying to tell you.

"1-2-4" refers to the fingers we use in stopping notes on the double bass up to the octave. We don't use the ring finger until the octave and beyond. You may see this also referred to as the "Simandl Method." Franz Simandl was the first to develop a useful pedagogy for the double bass. The other part of Simandl's method for the left hand involves shifting - lots of it - because one hand position covers no more than three semitones on a string.

His pedagogy is still overwhelmingly used, and if you want to play with good intonation, you will at least start with it (there are other methods, but it's assumed that you started with Simandl). Precision in intonation is harder to hear when playing pizzicato, so you may "get by" with whatever fingering methods you use, depending on the level of musicianship you aspire to... but if you ever pick up the bow, you will hear how out of tune you have been playing.

 

[Jeff Newton]

It's not a dumb question, but the fact that you ask it indicates that you have a knowledge gap which is preventing you from understanding what we have been trying to tell you.

"1-2-4" refers to the fingers we use in stopping notes on the double bass up to the octave. We don't use the ring finger until the octave and beyond. You may see this also referred to as the "Simandl Method." Franz Simandl was the first to develop a useful pedagogy for the double bass. The other part of Simandl's method for the left hand involves shifting - lots of it - because one hand position covers no more than three semitones on a string.

His pedagogy is still overwhelmingly used, and if you want to play with good intonation, you will at least start with it (there are other methods, but it's assumed that you started with Simandl). Precision in intonation is harder to hear when playing pizzicato, so you may "get by" with whatever fingering methods you use, depending on the level of musicianship you aspire to... but if you ever pick up the bow, you will hear how out of tune you have been playing.

Yes, of course I have a large "knowledge gap" here. What's wrong with using the ring finger ... injury prone? I've not had any problems, as you note is possible, with pizz ... (on my Zeta Crossover) and I have absolute pitch, so out of tune playing isn't my cup of tea.

I'll look up Simandel .. thanks! That said, I remember staring at the cover of Phil Woods's "Live at the Showboat" record cover and with seeing Phil sitting immediately in front of him at clubs --- at his fingers did not move. AT ALL!

So naturally I tried that technique.... (straight fingers on right hand, cocked wrist).

BIG MISTAKE!

One could easily get carpel tunnel from that. Phil didn't have my hand size. I curve my fingers, relax my wrist, and I can play as fast as Phil, even on the small alto sax.

So I use what's comfortable. I don't use the Allard method for sax embochure, either.

And on guitar? My left thumb isn't under the fretboard, that's for sure. It's like Jimi's, and it works fine.

But I think your main point is that EB and AB have different playing techniques, so I'll check that out!

 

[fdeck]

Man, I want an electric cello. But I've made myself a rule that I first have to get my technique back on my regular cello.

The 1-2-4 technique is a compromise because most of us can't safely reach fully 3 half-steps without injury, and with tolerable intonation. And there's thought to be something wrong with anatomy that makes the ring finger weak. Though you're big, I'm thinking that percentage wise, you're not all that much bigger than us little guys, so don't assume you can get away with anything crazy. Even with big hands, the 1-2-4 technique might get you up the learning curve quicker.