Double Bass How important is Scale Length? Pros? Cons?

[damonsmith]

You don't want to listen, but I'll put this here for future reference. First of all, the big hands / absolute pitch thing is often claimed online by beginners looking for various workarounds for actual study - never, I mean NEVER proven in real life.
Big hand may help in the low end, they are going to cause trouble up high. Perfect pitch is going to push you to tune a bad hand system and hardwire bad habits.
You really have so many "rookie" misconceptions and questions - it is 1000% you are NOT on a good path. It is worth finding a real teacher and an instrument with a real scale to study arco - unless you just to play at being a double bass player.
You are walking in and thinking you are the exception to the rule in the face of 300+ years of pedagogy. If things were are simple as you are hoping we'd all just get a short scale bass and be instant virtuosos.

The bass itself doesn't tolerate the level of arrogance you are bringing to it - your claims of "absolute pitch" are fine enough but it is pretty clear you are not actually "hearing" what the instrument has to say.

Yes, of course I have a large "knowledge gap" here. What's wrong with using the ring finger ... injury prone? I've not had any problems, as you note is possible, with pizz ... (on my Zeta Crossover) and I have absolute pitch, so out of tune playing isn't my cup of tea.

I'll look up Simandel .. thanks! That said, I remember staring at the cover of Phil Woods's "Live at the Showboat" record cover and with seeing Phil sitting immediately in front of him at clubs --- at his fingers did not move. AT ALL!

So naturally I tried that technique.... (straight fingers on right hand, cocked wrist).

BIG MISTAKE!

One could easily get carpel tunnel from that. Phil didn't have my hand size. I curve my fingers, relax my wrist, and I can play as fast as Phil, even on the small alto sax.

So I use what's comfortable. I don't use the Allard method for sax embochure, either.

And on guitar? My left thumb isn't under the fretboard, that's for sure. It's like Jimi's, and it works fine.

But I think your main point is that EB and AB have different playing techniques, so I'll check that out!

 

[Jeff Newton]

I am getting the electric cello first because (a) I want an Eastman cello, and it's 3 grand, and (b) I'd better get some bowing chops down before I subject my girlfriend (who LOVES cello) to crappy bowing technique)!

I'll find out if I need to omit the ring finger. The left pinky operates 4 keys on sax.... Schumann comes to mind: shuman pinky - Google Search

 

[Jeff Newton]

You don't want to listen, but I'll put this here for future reference. First of all, the big hands / absolute pitch thing is often claimed online by beginners looking for various workarounds for actual study - never, I mean NEVER proven in real life.
Big hand may help in the low end, they are going to cause trouble up high. Perfect pitch is going to push you to tune a bad hand system and hardwire bad habits.
You really have so many "rookie" misconceptions and questions - it is 1000% you are NOT on a good path. It is worth finding a real teacher and an instrument with a real scale to study arco - unless you just to play at being a double bass player.
You are walking in and thinking you are the exception to the rule in the face of 300+ years of pedagogy. If things were are simple as you are hoping we'd all just get a short scale bass and be instant virtuosos.

The bass itself doesn't tolerate the level of arrogance you are bringing to it - your claims of "absolute pitch" are fine enough but it is pretty clear you are not actually "hearing" what the instrument has to say.

All I know is that the one time I actually tried an acoustic bass (I assume it was 3/4 scale), it felt great size-wise. I'm hardly a beginner to music - keyboards since the month before Woodstock, saxophones since the year before Watergate. My music school practice routine was generally all day, every day, as in 15 hours with the horn one way or another (woodshed, rehearsal, gig, etc.).

I really sense a sense of hate for 34" scale ... for me, it's all new. So, in a nutshell, WHAT, precisely, is the difference in technique between 34" and 41"?

As to my hand size, it matches up well with piano, baritone sax and acoustic bass .. and that's about it! EVERYTHING else is a compromise. Like spending years finding just the right size and shape for key corks on sax (making them by hand, taking the horn apart to refine, etc.).

I have a virtuoso bass player friend who can assist. He's played with everybody.

 

[turf3]

Look, there are professional bassists ranging from 5 feet to 6 1/2 feet tall. They almost universally play 3/4 basses of normal scale length, using the standard Simandl hand position, except when there are special circumstances like a passage that requires something oddball to execute it cleanly.

You can fool around with electric cellos and trying to get a longer or shorter scale length and trying to play one finger per fret as if it were an electric bass, and there is a non-zero chance that you can teach youself how to do this using non-standard methods.

But the reason the standard pedagogy for double bass runs through arco practice with a qualified instructor using one of the two or three standard bass methods, is that it is the fastest way to proficiency, without bad habits, for 99+% of people. You could prove me wrong, but I really doubt that the fact that you're tall with big hands and have played other musical instruments at a high level makes you one of those <1%; and even if you are, following the standard pedagogy certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Honestly, having gone the largely self-taught route on saxophone and jazz improvisation, and having gone the traditional route on piano, flute, and bass, I don't see why so many people are looking for short cuts to playing bass that will almost always end up being less productive than just getting a standard bass, a standard German or French bow, a qualified instructor, and getting at it.

(Your friend the virtuoso bassist may, or may not, be a qualified instructor. Not all who can play, can teach. Keep that in mind. I don't know the person, so you'll have to judge that.)

 

[Jeff Newton]

Look, there are professional bassists ranging from 5 feet to 6 1/2 feet tall. They almost universally play 3/4 basses of normal scale length, using the standard Simandl hand position, except when there are special circumstances like a passage that requires something oddball to execute it cleanly.

You can fool around with electric cellos and trying to get a longer or shorter scale length and trying to play one finger per fret as if it were an electric bass, and there is a non-zero chance that you can teach youself how to do this using non-standard methods.

But the reason the standard pedagogy for double bass runs through arco practice with a qualified instructor using one of the two or three standard bass methods, is that it is the fastest way to proficiency, without bad habits, for 99+% of people. You could prove me wrong, but I really doubt that the fact that you're tall with big hands and have played other musical instruments at a high level makes you one of those <1%; and even if you are, following the standard pedagogy certainly isn't going to hurt you.

Honestly, having gone the largely self-taught route on saxophone and jazz improvisation, and having gone the traditional route on piano, flute, and bass, I don't see why so many people are looking for short cuts to playing bass that will almost always end up being less productive than just getting a standard bass, a standard German or French bow, a qualified instructor, and getting at it.

(Your friend the virtuoso bassist may, or may not, be a qualified instructor. Not all who can play, can teach. Keep that in mind. I don't know the person, so you'll have to judge that.)

 

[damonsmith]

I'm hardly a beginner to music

I start each day with the bass "from the beginning". If you don't think you are beginner each time you pick up a new instrument then, again, you are not really listening to what each instrument has to say to you.
As Wadada Leo Smith once said to me, "the music is bigger than all of us". The attitude you are taking in your posts is likely just going to lead you to really shallow experiences with music as a whole not just the bass.

 

[bassically_eli]

I think a lot of you will appreciate what Marcos Machado has to say about instrument scale/size as well as left hand technique. Here he is talking about instrument size. He is an excellent example of @fdeck 's point regarding different schools of thought. Marcos has combined various schools of double bass pedagogy to incorporate various pivots, stretches, and 1-2-3-4 fingering even in the low registers of the instrument. Here's a preview of some of the left hand techniques he uses, or just go to YouTube and search for "Discover Double Bass Marcos Machado." Disclaimer: I'm not recommending that anyone try to learn these techniques on their own, especially not beginners. I think that could easily lead to injuries. Find a qualified teacher.

An EUB with 34" scale will sound a lot like a bass guitar. A DB-scaled EUB will sound more like, well, a double bass. And, if you ever want to play an actual double bass, you'll have the advantage of being accustomed to the scale. Most importantly, the advice concerning the fact that techniques are quite different for the respective instruments is spot on.

@Jeff Newton I can't imagine a 34" scale EUB sounding much like anything other than a fretless bass guitar. That's essentially what it is after all, just rotated 90 degrees. Regarding the technique, I would also approach it pretty much like a bass guitar, not much like a double bass. I'm not knocking the idea. I love fretless bass guitar! And the idea of a fretless bass that one could bow--that actually sounds pretty damn cool to me.

To elaborate more on what others have already said, the left and right hand technique for acoustic double bass really is totally different than electric. I played electric bass for many years before taking up upright in college, and I was pretty shocked at just how different it was. For one thing, you have to learn to use the weight of your arms as well as some of the big muscles in your back and arms to assist the small muscles in your hands. I'm not small (~6'2" with long limbs) and I have very good grip strength from years of martial arts (mostly BJJ), but my hands would be shot 30 minutes into a gig if I tried to make a good sound without good technique. Furthermore, shifting between the low, middle, and high ranges of the instrument requires moving your entire body AND the bass. You can't just move your hand up like on a EBG. Likewise, the left hand technique is very difficult around the neck heel of the bass, which interferes with your thumb placement, and the shoulders of the bass interfere with your forearm. Moving into thumb position, you must learn to use your thumb-1-2-3 to stop the strings. Another point, the position of your thumb on the back of the neck is very important and is different when playing the G-string vs the E-string--big hands may be a detriment here, especially if you try playing a bass with a skinny neck. I could keep going on about vibrato, right hand plucking, and then there's arco, but I think you get the point.

 

[Jeff Newton]

For space, environmental / care, price and travel concerns, I'm looking at an EUB, although I'd love to have an acoustic as well. The "full size" ones appear to be 41" or so for scale length. Am I correct that their physical dimensions equate with 3/4?

I start each day with the bass "from the beginning". If you don't think you are beginner each time you pick up a new instrument then, again, you are not really listening to what each instrument has to say to you.
As Wadada Leo Smith once said to me, "the music is bigger than all of us". The attitude you are taking in your posts is likely just going to lead you to really shallow experiences with music as a whole not just the bass.

That's a very strange comment, so I'll just disregard it. As Billy Cobham told me: "you sound great"! As Dizzy Gillespie told me: "you play your ass off." As Ravi Coltrane told me: "you sound beautiful." As Ron Carter told me: "I enjoyed your playing" (Ron listened to me for 20 minutes straight, and let me tell you, that was quite a thing to experience!) As Chick Corea told me: "you have a really good tone." As Steve Gadd told me: "you play great." I could name a bunch more, but you get the idea.....

So, at least some pretty good players might disagree with your assessment.

FWIW, I've played the same Selmer Mark VI tenor sax that I bought new as a 15 year old in 1973, nearly every day. I estimate that over 60,000 hours of my life have gone into that horn.

I'm just trying to get a handle on 34" versus 41" - I don't need a lecture on music in general, you dig?

I still have yet to hear why the ring finger isn't used......

 

[bassmanbrent]

I still have yet to hear why the ring finger isn't used......

Using your ring finger, as in 1234 electric bass technique, is too big a stretch on a standard 3/4 size (41 inch string length) bass. Next time you get together with your bass playing friend, ask them. Or better yet, pick up their bass and play Ab to B natural on the G string with 1234 fingering and see how much of a stretch is involved. If you play continuously like that, you'll almost certainly hurt yourself.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Thank you for your answer! I will try that!

You mean: play Ab, A, Bb, B on the G string, 1234 fingering....?

If so, the distance will be too great and involve too much of a stretch between A and Bb to use the ring finger? If so, which finger for B, then?

Thank you...

 

[turf3]

To play Ab to B natural on the G string, using standard technique:

Ab 1
A 2
Bb 4
B shift, use 1, 2, or 4 depending on where you're going next.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Thank you!

 

[bassmanbrent]

You mean: play Ab, A, Bb, B on the G string, 1234 fingering....?

If so, the distance will be too great and involve too much of a stretch between A and Bb to use the ring finger?

Yes, exactly. I recommend that you talk to your friend and at the very least get a few lessons with them about the fundamentals of playing the DB. It's great that you have a strong musical background, but some lessons right out of the gate pertaining to technique, standing, holding the bass etc. will save you a whole lot of time and possible injury.

 

[VictorW126]

The "full size" ones appear to be 41" or so for scale length. Am I correct that their physical dimensions equate with 3/4?

Yes

 

[Jeff Newton]

Yes, exactly. I recommend that you talk to your friend and at the very least get a few lessons with them about the fundamentals of playing the DB. It's great that you have a strong musical background, but some lessons right out of the gate pertaining to technique, standing, holding the bass etc. will save you a whole lot of time and possible injury.

Yes, I am going to do that. I still take piano lessons, even though I've played since 1969, since saxophone is my "main" axe. There are a couple of sax players I'd like a lesson with - Joe Lovano, Bob Mintzer. I actually had a lesson with Stan Getz! Since I'm now in Boston, perhaps Jerry Bergonzi. Right now, the focus is on getting a 41" instrument. So, BSX, Eminence, NS Design, RF Travel, etc. I'd like an acoustic sound chamber. I passed on the NS for cello since, despite its many advantages, I think it sounds ... NOT like a cello. Maybe the bass is different?

 

[VictorW126]

Right now, the focus is on getting a 41" instrument. So, BSX, Eminence, NS Design, RF Travel, etc. I'd like an acoustic sound chamber. I passed on the NS for cello since, despite its many advantages, I think it sounds ... NOT like a cello. Maybe the bass is different?

Before you get any more professional answers, I will say that it is important to decide if you want an instrument similar to an acoustic double bass. Basses like ns-dis have a full string length, but they have a completely different grip. This applies to the shape of the heel and body. There is a big difference between a "D" (or "Eb") neck and a full length neck of one, one and a half, or even two octaves. There is a difference between a reduced body (Eminens and other) with support on a end-pin-spire, with false shoulders (Yamaha, Alter-Ego, etc.), with an emphasis on the stomach (BSX and other) and a stick supported on a tripod (Ergo, NS-dus and other). I'm not talking about sound, just about physical sensations and convenience. All options have their own adherents, just know that EUB's is very diverse.

 

[Jeff Newton]

Before you get any more professional answers, I will say that it is important to decide if you want an instrument similar to an acoustic double bass. Basses like ns-dis have a full string length, but they have a completely different grip. This applies to the shape of the heel and body. There is a big difference between a "D" (or "Eb") neck and a full length neck of one, one and a half, or even two octaves. There is a difference between a reduced body (Eminens and other) with support on a end-pin-spire, with false shoulders (Yamaha, Alter-Ego, etc.), with an emphasis on the stomach (BSX and other) and a stick supported on a tripod (Ergo, NS-dus and other). I'm not talking about sound, just about physical sensations and convenience. All options have their own adherents, just know that EUB's is very diverse.

Yes, all sorts of ways to reduce the physical footprint result in all sorts of compromises on playing position. I'm thinking I like one with a hollow soundbox, too. I'd probably prefer the neck wasn't so slender, either.

 

[turf3]

With all due respect, you don't even know how to play the real thing and you're already searching amongst alternatives to the real thing and being concerned about design details of those alternatives. Why don't you rent a good quality student double bass (3/4 size, standard bass, no EUBs or sticks or what have you) and take a series of lessons with a qualified instructor out of one of the standard beginner methods, and THEN start deciding what to do about an alternative to the real thing? It certainly sounds like disciplining yourself to practice isn't going to be a problem.

In the end, for me personally, I found that there is the real thing, and the best small-form alternative to the real thing for me has turned out to be a Precision Bass with a small amp. If I hadn't learned how to play the real thing first, I wouldn't have had enough knowledge to even make that decision. For all you know, you might decide to do that rather than one of the many EUBs all of which have some degree of compromise compared to a standard upright bass.

 

[Jeff Newton]

That's definitely something to consider.

When you say "precision," do you mean Fender Precision Electric Bass?

 

[turf3]

Yep, the original Fender bass, with flat wound strings, a piece of foam rubber shoved under the strings near the bridge, and the tone controls rolled all the way off. No, it's not as close to a real bass as an EUB, but for what I do it works fine, it was real cheap, and it's real small.

Let me be clear, though, I'm not suggesting a Fender bass be a straight up substitute for upright so that you never play upright; I mean that I use it when the load-in is too crazy for the big bass, or if I have a hand injury (happened a few years ago, not related to music) or if I need to drive a long distance with suitcases and other equipment and don't have room in the car for the big bass.