+100 I have experienced all of this on my reading journey. I think the rhythmic value of reading is undersold ( and its rhythmic shortcomings overstated )
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How long does it take to get good?
- Thread starter Dr. Cheese
- Start date
Weakest part of my game is I cannot read rhythm or count it well, I have to hear it first, then I can reproduce it.
How long does it takd to get good...no definitive answer.
Some will never do it..they just don't have the ears in the first place.
So they are not listening to the right stuff and concentrate on wrong things or don't focus enough.
Some have an inate unquantifiable talent and get there in record time. Most are going to take 20 yrs plus..and even then, then need very good direction..which either they provide themselves or a good mentor/teacher helps.
Some can do 30yrs plus and are never going to get there. And then there is what is relative...??
Some will never do it..they just don't have the ears in the first place.
So they are not listening to the right stuff and concentrate on wrong things or don't focus enough.
Some have an inate unquantifiable talent and get there in record time. Most are going to take 20 yrs plus..and even then, then need very good direction..which either they provide themselves or a good mentor/teacher helps.
Some can do 30yrs plus and are never going to get there. And then there is what is relative...??
I know I have told this story before on TB but when I was 19, in store downtown Chicago buying my Rick 4001 in '72, a father brought his kid in to look at basses. The kid, perhaps 10, had never seen a bass IRL yet sat down with a Precision and started slapping and popping away, and he was good. Very few people slapped back then so this was amazing to all the adults in the store. Just born with the knack for it, I guess.
I can't actually state how many hours have I played bass. Certainly too little, but after almost 20 years I am at peace with myself. For the longest time I wish I was somebody else (think of a pro player you admire), just without wanting to work my ars off. But that is not the case anymore. I don't actually have particularly good ear either but I'm proud someone liked my basslines the few times in my life I recorded original music. I actually take great pride of that. It helped restoring my faith in myself, I mean, knowing that to some extent what I do it matters in the bigger picture.
The old line about practicing...I’ll be better tomorrow than today. If I practice. So… one day?
If I miss one day of practice I notice.
If I miss two days of practice other musicians notice.
If I miss three days of practice everyone notices.
Off topic but
I'm highly skeptical of the role of "born with a knack for it" in the musical journey.
historically there are many threads clashing our opinions on the concept of "natural talent"
I've learned that "either you have it or you don't" is a very precious idea to many.
these days I have come to view it like a the initial investment in a compounding interest account
(because I'm middle aged)
if I invest my meager $100 of "knack" at 3% interest for 10 years,
with a monthly contribution of $1, I will have $272
if Jaco invests his $200 of "knack" similarly , he nets $406
so it appears more "knack" leaves the me in the dust
but: what if I double monthly contribution? (I practice harder, study more? )
with a monthly contribution of $2, I will have $410 ( more than Jaco, lol )
what if I can find a better interest rate ( seek out playing opportunities and build my musical network ?)
The point is natural talent can indeed give you a leg up,
but musicianship is a result of "knack" + other factors, over time
and those factors, over time, will outweigh the simple initial state of any "knack"
The best part is: those other factors are under our control ( if we aware of them.)
Well, I guess you have a point. We all start somewhere, some of us start further up the chain than others. I can give you a personal example. My sister and I have the same mother but different biological fathers. Her father was a professional musician, a famous singer and performer in South America back in the 40's and early 50's. He recorded a significant amount of music, performed for presidents of the Latin American countries. My mother tells the story of when he refused to perform for Perone and they were locked in the hotel suite captive until he agreed to do so. My father on the other hand was not a musician, and our mother had absolutely no musical ability, though she was an excellent dancer.
Both my sister and I had piano lessons, same teacher. I could not learn anything on that instrument, and could never learn to read music, standard notation. My sister on the other hand read well and played beautifully. She hated music. Did not like playing, and quit as soon as she was out of the house. I on the other hand love music and love to play, but it has been a harder, longer road for me.
Genes and natural ability do have a lot to do with it. Supposedly, Samy Davis Jr could play any instrument, just had a natural ability to do so. He wasn't trained on them, just could play them.
Jaco at 21 had $200 dollars of knack. After 10 years I now have $410 of knack.
so according to my hypothetical math , yes.
Reality: No I'm not as good as Jaco a 21, and may never be.
Also reality: It does not matter, at all, that I am not. What difference should someone else's ability make to my own efforts?
I'm not saying "talent" does not exist, I'm saying it's a useless factor in my choices for improving.
But, as I stated, I've learned that "either you have it or you don't" is a very precious idea to many.
It's just not precious to me.
Now that you state it in that manner, I totally agree with you. Comparisons against other players are useless and counterproductive. As long as you enjoy what you are playing, and the sounds coming out of your instrument, you are on the path. As others here have said, there is no destination, it is about the journey. Each one of us has slightly different spices in our secret sauce. I know even when I started and totally sucked my teacher at the time told me to keep going, I had something a little different going on. That is all it takes. A friend at gym asked me today what my New Year's resolution was, and I told him I don't make those, but my standing resolution is to be better. Better person, better player, better TB post writer, whatever.Jaco at 21 had $200 dollars of knack. After 10 years I now have $410 of knack.
so according to my hypothetical math , yes.
Reality: No I'm not as good as Jaco a 21, and may never be.
Also reality: It does not matter, at all, that I am not. What difference should someone else's ability make to my own efforts?
I'm not saying "talent" does not exist, I'm saying it's a useless factor in my choices for improving.
But, as I stated, I've learned that "either you have it or you don't" is a very precious idea to many.
It's just not precious to me.
2 years to play in bars? Perhaps. Does the bar have chicken wire to protect the band from the bottles that are going to be thrown at it?
Yes, I played in a college band after I had only been playing less than a year, and only knew roots, fifths and octaves, plus of course whatever the song's riff was. We were playing really crappy rock, stuff like "Funk49," and we had a PA system and a drummer who could impress with his flashy solos. The bar was pretty low back then in '73. Of course, we actually had to play our instruments, we didn't have loop tracks, auto-tune, samplers, and drum machines. I chose to play bass back then because it was a rarity, everyone wanted to play guitar, so I got to play even though I sucked. Fast forward to over 50 years later, and because of all the tech I mentioned, and the trend toward techno and bass-synth'd music, bass is a rarity again?
Your previous post said with extra investment you could get "more than jaco" and "musicianship is a result of "knack" + other factors, over time and those factors, over time, will outweigh the simple initial state of any "knack"".Jaco at 21 had $200 dollars of knack. After 10 years I now have $410 of knack.
so according to my hypothetical math , yes.
Reality: No I'm not as good as Jaco a 21, and may never be.
Also reality: It does not matter, at all, that I am not. What difference should someone else's ability make to my own efforts?
I'm not saying "talent" does not exist, I'm saying it's a useless factor in my choices for improving.
But, as I stated, I've learned that "either you have it or you don't" is a very precious idea to many.
It's just not precious to me.
Maybe some of the time, but great talent will outweigh great practice. Talent plus practice is best. Some with talent ride it without work but people like jaco were motivated by their talent to work because of the great results they could see. No amount of practice for someone like me will make me "more than jaco".
I don't want to be jaco but don't discount talent in the equation. In reality I know talented people that work and try hards that can't get a gig.
I admit it's an oversimplified metaphor.
I agree completely that players can be motivated by their talent to work because of the results they see.
and it becomes a feedback loop, driving them to ever greater levels of mastery.
Talent exists and your explanation is precisely how it is a factor in improving. Total agreement.
It's just not the only factor, and when it comes to my efforts to improve, it is not nearly the most important one .
I don't feel considering / comparing / stressing about talent has any utility for someone looking to improve.
The path to improvement is identical regardless of talent, so it's a waste of my time to worry about it.
Which is funny considering I've posted so much about it.
